Steve Jackson Games Forums Cracking water in TRAVELLER
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 04-24-2019, 04:07 PM #1 hal   Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Buffalo, New York Cracking water in TRAVELLER I have to be wrong about this - please tell me that I'm wrong! This is what I find elsewhere on the net... "Water has a rel molecular weight of 18 amu, so 1 mole of water has a mass of 18 grams. So, 1,000 grams of water contains 1,000/18 moles = 55.5 moles. Therefore 1 litre of H2O produces 111 moles of H, and 55.5 moles of O." Elsewhere I find... "Avogadro's rule for molar volume states that one mole of any ideal gas occupies 22.4 liters of volume" If the above mentioned items are correct - to fill 13.5 Kiloliters with Hydrogen, you'd need something like 5 liters of water. Please tell me the math is wrong. Please? If I'm right? One need only carry a single dTon of water in your hold, plus the empty fuel tankage you need to fill with Hydrogen for when you want to jump, and you're golden. if 5 liter of volume = 0.176573333607443 cubic feet, then 500 cubic feet of water will produce about 2831.6846591999992182374156967191 dTons of hydrogen Fuel. These numbers MUST be off! Last edited by hal; 04-24-2019 at 04:09 PM. Reason: spelling error correction
 04-24-2019, 05:14 PM #2 Anthony   Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Berkeley, CA Re: Cracking water in TRAVELLER Hydrogen fuel in Traveller is liquid hydrogen, not hydrogen gas, so 1 dton (14 cubic meters) is actually 1 ton of hydrogen. 9 cubic meters of water weighs 9 tons and can be cracked for 8 tons oxygen and 1 ton hydrogen. __________________ My GURPS site and Blog.
04-24-2019, 09:40 PM   #3
hal

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Re: Cracking water in TRAVELLER

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anthony Hydrogen fuel in Traveller is liquid hydrogen, not hydrogen gas, so 1 dton (14 cubic meters) is actually 1 ton of hydrogen. 9 cubic meters of water weighs 9 tons and can be cracked for 8 tons oxygen and 1 ton hydrogen.
Thank you Anthony! Whew!

04-24-2019, 10:18 PM   #4
malloyd

Join Date: Jun 2006
Re: Cracking water in TRAVELLER

Quote:
 Originally Posted by hal Thank you Anthony! Whew!
Yes. The molar volume of an ideal gas depends on the conditions - 22.4 liters is for a specific one - the old definition of standard temperature and pressure (0 C and 1 atmosphere). It's 22.71 liters for the more modern version of STP (10^5 bars), and there are half a dozen other kinds of "standard conditions" for gases, so other values in the 20 to 25 liter range are possible depending on your source. None of them are anywhere close to the conditions required to have *liquid* hydrogen. The molar volume of liquid hydrogen at it's boiling point (20.28 K and 1 atmosphere) is about 0.0284 liters, about 789 times smaller. This is pretty typical, most things expand by a factor of 600 to 800 when they boil.
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MA Lloyd

 04-24-2019, 11:45 PM #5 hal   Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Buffalo, New York Re: Cracking water in TRAVELLER Based on what you guys are telling me, I presume that for purposes of storage, and that the time to purify water into its "hydrogen" component - it makes more sense to keep your tanks filled with water until you anticipate needing it for the hydrogen. I'm thinking based on Anthony's numbers that 9 cubic meters of water will produce 1 dTon of hydrogen, that the ratio of Water to Hydrogen is about 64% (or if using 13.5 Cubic Meters of volume per CT, we're looking at .67% For a 100 dTon scoutship - back when the ships could only manage Jump 1, they could have had 10 dTons of fuel tankage for the primary jump, and then carry an additional 7 dTons of water. Cracked into Hydrogen, it would have given them the necessary 10 dTons of hydrogen for the next jump without even needing additional fuel. Best of all, it doesn't require cryogenic storage. That's just a minor nitpick after all these years. I can't help but wonder what the workup would be for Ammonia (why use Methane if you have better uses for Methane?) Thanks again guys. :)
 04-25-2019, 12:30 AM #6 Anthony   Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Berkeley, CA Re: Cracking water in TRAVELLER If you have lots of surplus energy and don't care about mass, a number of compounds store hydrogen with more density than liquid hydrogen. __________________ My GURPS site and Blog.
 04-25-2019, 12:32 AM #7 Mike Wightman     Join Date: Aug 2004 Re: Cracking water in TRAVELLER Nitpick - CT always used 14 cubic metres per displacement ton. The 13.5 cubic metres was a DGPism introduced in MT which is based on deckplans square size rather than the volume of one ton of liquid hydrogen,
04-25-2019, 01:13 AM   #8
Anthony

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Re: Cracking water in TRAVELLER

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Mike Wightman Nitpick - CT always used 14 cubic metres per displacement ton. The 13.5 cubic metres was a DGPism introduced in MT which is based on deckplans square size rather than the volume of one ton of liquid hydrogen,
Counter nitpick: CT maps were 2 1.5x1.5x3m squares per dton (13.5m^3).
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.

04-25-2019, 07:47 AM   #9
malloyd

Join Date: Jun 2006
Re: Cracking water in TRAVELLER

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anthony If you have lots of surplus energy and don't care about mass, a number of compounds store hydrogen with more density than liquid hydrogen.
Water is a pretty good one though. Technically you can beat it, but your choices are liquid ammonia or diborane - both of which are somewhat toxic cryogenic liquids, or beryllium hydride or ammonia borane (NH3BH3) which are toxic solids.
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MA Lloyd

04-25-2019, 08:00 AM   #10
hal

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Re: Cracking water in TRAVELLER

Quote:
 Originally Posted by malloyd Water is a pretty good one though. Technically you can beat it, but your choices are liquid ammonia or diborane - both of which are somewhat toxic cryogenic liquids, or beryllium hydride or ammonia borane (NH3BH3) which are toxic solids.
Thanks - I would never have been able to even think of search words to use. I'm guessing that at the very least, water is probably best due to its dual use potential.

Since 2/3rds of a dTon of water has the equivalent of 1 dTon of Hydrogen fuel when liquefied - having extra fuel in the form of water is the likely way to go. It can be used as plain ordinary water, or it can be used as reserve fuel. I think this "tidbit" deserves to get its own mention in later future games for Traveller.

I have to confess, tackling Traveller in the early years (Milieu Zero) is challenging me to think outside the box in so many different things. One of the things I have to give serious thought to is this:

When Marc Miller wrote his material contained within T5, the idea for what worlds have what nobility was essentially a "snapshot" of what that world should be at that given point in time. My question is "What should it look like as time progresses? In other words, in the year 1105, it might look like X, but in the 1000, it looked like W instead. What is that "W" that it should look like.

Either way, knowing that water provides just a smidgen more hydrogen fuel than 1:1 is useful.

Ammonia MIGHT be the other alternative route to go - in that if the Liquid Hydrogen is Cryogenic in nature, it (the tanks) should also be able to handle the Ammonia. By chance, would you know how much liquid Hydrogen one can obtain from Liquid Ammonia? If not, no biggie. If yes - well, might be interesting!

As it is, I now have a couple more "engineering descriptions" to use in game play...

Piping that has warning labels on them for both Extreme Heat and Extreme Cold would be the norm. Heat for the fusion power plant, and cold for the fuel tanks for the jump drive. Just placing your hand over an exposed pipe could be bad.

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