05-29-2023, 10:14 PM | #11 | |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
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Re: [Low-Tech/Basic] Pick: War Club or Pickaxe
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I would give the kind of pickaxe that you use to break up earth or clay a penalty to hit (its too big and heavy, weapons for fighting have to me nimble because trees don't dodge or parry), require two hands, and give it stats similar to the Axe in GURPS Low-Tech but imp instead of cut if you strike with the spike. Maybe +1 damage for being two-handed.
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05-30-2023, 01:43 AM | #12 | |||||||
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Mannheim, Baden
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Re: [Low-Tech/Basic] Pick: War Club or Pickaxe
First off, thanks to everybody for chiming in. This is really the forum at its best.
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Thanks again everybody. This has been a most useful exercise!
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05-30-2023, 04:03 AM | #13 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: [Low-Tech/Basic] Pick: War Club or Pickaxe
Ah, you're right, it does say "-3". One of those things I missed while looking right at it.
I'm drawn toward a simple -1 instead, simply as it's the penalty used here and there for camp hatchets and hammers, machetes, crowbars, and other tools that take a penalty when used as weapons. But Action 5 does like to place larger penalties on a lot of things.
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05-30-2023, 08:23 AM | #14 |
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Mannheim, Baden
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Re: [Low-Tech/Basic] Pick: War Club or Pickaxe
Okay, here's my take based partly on both editions of Low-Tech, Action 5 and everybody's contributions.
Let's start with what most people think of, when they hear pickaxe: I'm starting with weight 7 lbs. and TL 2 from LT for 3rd Ed. The price of $18 seems low compared to adze and tool-grade hand-axe that both weigh in at more than double that. Weight and two-handed nature put it in a similar position to the warhammer as Action 5 and several posters point out. LT (for 4th Ed.) gives sw+4 imp, ST 12‡ and a nice round price of a hundred bucks. The Cheaply Balanced option brings this down to $40 and already gives a -1 to skill, not only to hit, so it'll reduce parry for any even skill level. I would agree with Pursuivant that damage should be reduced by one since it's not really meant for combat use. I'd call that a wash price- and weight-wise since it does have tool use instead. I'll also lose the bonus for targeting chinks in armour since it's not a weapon of war - the high damage should make it useful still. Adding in an armour-divisor of (2) vs. stone is really niche in most cases, but you never know when you run into a golem. It balances out IMHO. Low-Tech Companion lets us add an axe blade to the warhammer for a pound and $30. Since the actual pickaxe already has something like that and it is not technically a full-size axe blade, I'll split the difference and use half that. I'm also a little uncomfortable with straight great axe cutting damage, because of the really small and perpendicular blade. So I'm using the Long Axe (more historical anyway) instead and reduce the damage by one again for sw+2 cut. So I end up with the following stat-line for : Pickaxe (pick side): Damage: sw+3 imp | Reach: 1, 2* | Parry: 0U | Cost: $46 | Weight: 7.5 lbs. | ST 12‡ | TL 2 Pickaxe (axe side): Damage: sw+2 cut, rest the same. May get stuck. Changing side takes a ready action. I think the cost is likely too high and I'd drop that to $40 or even $30 (if you're at TL 8 that seems to fit the home depot prices). I'm not too sure about reach either: 1, 2* seems high for stuff that averages about a 90-95 cm length. Maybe Pursuivant has a better idea whether that fits? Not that it is a huge thing game-wise with the necessary ready action. Now for the one-handed mining tools that may have been more common in ancient times and were still in use right up to mechanised mining. You can see these here, here and here (one earthsci.org link, two wikipedia ones). I call this one a Miner's Pick since I'm not sure about the English name (the German word is Keilhaue and no I didn't know about this before doing some research): I'll take the GURPS pick from LT as the basis and add Cheaply balanced for -1 to skill. I'd say it is less unwieldy so you could probably go with just -1 to hit instead, but that seems a little confusing and would make it more expensive than the pickaxe. The damage is reduced by one (those Horseman's Picks look quite a bit heftier in the head) and the bonus for targeting chinks in armour falls alongside. So I get this: Miner's Pick: Damage: sw imp | Reach: 1 | Parry: 0U | Cost: $28 | Weight: 1.5 lbs. | ST 10 | TL 2 May get stuck. Not completely sure about the TL, but metal tools should probably stay in TL 2 or be an advanced TL 1 technology. Adjust price to match the pickaxe. In conclusion: the Pickaxe would be a nice if dangerous choice for a slave rebellion facing armoured foes. You'd have to rely on your dodge score. The Miner's Pick is considerably less interesting against anybody wearing more than token armour, but you can use an (improvised) shield together with it. Once you got ST 12 or more it looks quite nice again. Thoughts or comments are very welcome. Thank you, folks!
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05-30-2023, 10:53 AM | #15 |
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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Re: [Low-Tech/Basic] Pick: War Club or Pickaxe
Warhammers ARE picks. At the time the word "hammer" referred to the sharp, pointy end. The flat, bludgeoning part was called a "poll". Another word for warhammer is "pollhammer", because it is a hammer (spike) with a poll on the back.
The pickaxe or mattock is covered here http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=63236
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05-30-2023, 12:04 PM | #16 |
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Re: [Low-Tech/Basic] Pick: War Club or Pickaxe
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05-30-2023, 12:48 PM | #17 | |
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Mannheim, Baden
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Re: [Low-Tech/Basic] Pick: War Club or Pickaxe
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The thread you link to did unfortunately not quite wrap it up neatly (and also predates Low-Tech for 4th ed). The actual damage and other stats are missing. What I'm taking from it is a strong inclination of not treating the blade as a Great Axe and here I agree. Action 5 and a lot of folks in this thread here do think cutting damage is justified though, so I went with that, but reduced it to show its unwieldy profile and general bluntness. You could also go one further and say the whole -3 to hit from Action 5 should apply to the cutting damage, but that is making things a little confusing. I'd rather change it to crushing and raise the damage a bit again, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to know what it should be and the only real reference we have is Action 5.
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05-30-2023, 01:53 PM | #18 | |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: [Low-Tech/Basic] Pick: War Club or Pickaxe
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I will note that another way to make a pickaxe-type weapon in GURPS is to start with a pick (for one-handed use) or warhammer (for two-handed use) and add an axe head using the rules from LTC2 (or start with an axe of some flavor and add a pick head). If you don't have access to a book that has stats already out there for an agricultural (that is, one designed as a tool rather than as a weapon) pickaxe, you could basically take an agricultural pick and add an axe head (or agricultural axe and add a pick head). Those rules can be useful to cover a lot of weapons that aren't in the book - one of my personal favorites is to add a poll to a pick or warhammer (use the poll against mooks, the pick - which gets stuck on a hit - on tougher foes).
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05-30-2023, 11:28 PM | #19 |
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Mannheim, Baden
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Re: [Low-Tech/Basic] Pick: War Club or Pickaxe
Thanks for your thoughts, Varyon. As a mostly low-tech combat person, I forgot about piercing. There are some more reasons not to do that: a) hardly any melee weapons use piercing (a beak as a Striker is, I think, the only thing listed on the Basic Set tables), b) you need to keep some additional wounding modifiers straight in your head. But your reality check is probably the main thing. As its use spans the ages the issue of running into bullet-resistant armour cannot be ruled out either.
I am fine with the pick side (-1 damage for dullness) though and more worried about about the axe blade since the thread DanHoward linked seems to point towards it not doing cutting damage. I've had a lot of thoughts about this, but so far I kind of agree with you that it should count as an axe. It might be a relatively narrow and relatively blunt axe for modern comparisons, but it is very close to the standard stone age and bronze age axe-heads (Wikipedia link). This type continued to be in use, but more "flashy" thin- and broad-bladed axes are what we think of as axe in fantasy. It's important to keep in mind that the latter are not the only or even the standard option. I dropped damage for the axe side an extra point, because the perpendicular blade makes it more awkward to use for full effect and I think it makes shallow scrapes a bit more likely. However, I'd be more than happy to be convinced to remove that. It's as much for game balance as anything else and game balance might be overdoing it for a weapon that will not be terribly attractive except in niche builds that need to scramble for starting funds. I did use LTC2, by the way, and just hand-waved the lowered damage and lost armour-penetration with the fact that this is also a useful tool. Pity there isn't a more comprehensive weapon-building system that includes a couple of more features that aren't all combat-oriented. Still very good compared to what fantasies other systems offer.
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05-31-2023, 11:03 PM | #20 | ||
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Re: [Low-Tech/Basic] Pick: War Club or Pickaxe
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Of course, you get what you pay for. I'd call just about any unpowered garden or yard implement you get at a big box hardware store "Cheap-Quality" regardless of price. Those sorts of tools invariably break, bend or otherwise fail under stress. Quote:
I could easily see a -3 to hit for an 8 lb. pickaxe/whatever if you're not familiar with it or are trying to use it at Reach 2. Typically, you'd cancel that penalty with AoA (Determined) or a Telegraphic Attack with a full "John Henry" style windup. A -2 penalty seems a bit more reasonable if you only attack at Range 1 and primarily use a Defensive Grip. As a weapon, a pickaxe is incredibly, unforgivingly tip-heavy and just doesn't move with the same agility as a purpose-built weapon with similar balance. That makes it great for delivering maximum force blows to stationary targets but a real liability if you need to quickly switch from attack to defense or are trying to get through a brief gap in your opponent's defenses. |
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