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Old 05-19-2023, 12:11 AM   #11
cupbearer
 
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Default Re: Wet torch

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
For this purpose I would treat the type impregnated with animal and vegetable fats, and the type impregnated with pitch the same, and I explained how I would handle it above: depending on how long the torches were soaked and how the characters dry them, I would decide whether they fail to ignite at all, or burn dimly giving vision penalties, or seem to ignite but go out or start to flicker at just the wrong time, or give HT and vision penalties from smoke. If its a very brief immersion and they are very careful about drying them out, maybe the torches even work!

Until someone does an experiment with a variety of types of torches and rushlights, I would start from the general principle that fire and water don't mix and low-tech portable light sources are annoying and barely functional.

Edit: I agree with RGTraynor that you also have to consider how they are lighting the torches. Normally you need completely dry tinder to start a fire by low-tech means, and most tinderboxes will not hold out if held underwater. I don't think even modern matches will light if they have been soaked in water for minutes!
Yeah so that is a problem (for the tinder) they don't have a solution in this case, does tinder every dry?

I think wet matches are basically garbage, i don't even know if they woul dry out.
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Old 05-19-2023, 12:19 AM   #12
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Default Re: Wet torch

Tinder is just combustible material worked into very small pieces (high surface to volume ratio so they heat up quickly from small sparks) and dried. It can be fungus or rotten wood or grass or threads of linen or fine charcoal.

But if it is soaked, its not going to be usable without days in hot sun.
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Old 05-19-2023, 01:04 AM   #13
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Default Re: Wet torch

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But if it is soaked, its not going to be usable without days in hot sun.
Which is why medieval and early modern tinderboxes were a) water resistant, b) made from metal so they could stand being roasted over a fire to more quickly dry out wet tinder. In some cases, they had a tight enough seal that they could pyrolize tinder (i.e., turn it into charcoal) to make it even more flammable.

As to torches, rushlights, etc. it depends on how much grease or wax has worked its way into the underlying material.

A high-quality beeswax or pitch-coated torch might light with little trouble (or as minimal trouble as you get when trying to light a low TL torch using low TL firestarters) after a few good hard shakes or a bit of time to air dry.

A torch based on oil-impregnated material might be harder to light because some of the oil got driven out by soaking it in water. After a good, long soak it might effectively be useless.

Any torch made from porous materials alone, with no fire accelerant/waterproofing, is going to turn into a soggy mess that won't light until you hit it with a blowtorch or fireball spell. That's going to include most improvised torches, like pine cones wedged into a split piece of wood or a piece of cloth wrapped around a stick. Even if you do get it to light, the flame will spit, hiss and smoke as it boils off the remaining water.
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Old 05-19-2023, 08:40 AM   #14
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Default Re: Wet torch

Why don't you point us to a metal tinderbox in a museum collection dated before the 18th century. I will wait, but there are lots of big museum collections with a searchable digital catalogue.

People today often use tins of mints to make charcloth (linen charcoal) but we have cheap sheet steel and aluminum and people before the 20th century did not. So its easy for us to make a watertight metal box.

s/19th/18th; I think they had rolled sheet iron by the 18th c.
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Old 05-19-2023, 12:14 PM   #15
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Default Re: Wet torch

(blinks) The metalworking technology to make a water-resistant box existed in the BRONZE AGE, for pity's sake. Waterproof, no. But able to handle brief immersion, assuredly.

In any event, dry tinder isn't that hard to come by in most environments. Worst comes to worst, shave off some of your own body hair and use that.
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Old 05-19-2023, 12:20 PM   #16
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Default Re: Wet torch

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(blinks) The metalworking technology to make a water-resistant box existed in the BRONZE AGE, for pity's sake. Waterproof, no. But able to handle brief immersion, assuredly.

In any event, dry tinder isn't that hard to come by in most environments. Worst comes to worst, shave off some of your own body hair and use that.
Making thin sheet bronze with a hammer and anvil and brazing it into a box is expensive, and something like a birchbark box or a turned wooden box works just as well as long as you don't do something silly like put the tinderbox underwater. The 'Altoids tin tinderbox or charcloth tin' is something I hear about in very recent times when homogeneous springy sheet metal cost ~nothing.

If you just swam underwater, I don't think your hair is going to be dry enough to make good tinder. If immediately after swimming underwater you need a light, you probably are not in a warm dry lush environment where you can easily forage tinder.

Edit: here is someone who tried and failed to use human hair as tinder (even with a Bic lighter to ignite it!) https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/...tinder.171033/
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Old 05-19-2023, 12:30 PM   #17
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Default Re: Wet torch

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If you could afford beeswax, you would normally use it in candles, not smoky sputtering torches. The candles can even be placed inside a lantern so they are wind-resistant!

Cooking water out of nearby organic matter is bad for fires and everyone I know who has played around with low-tech movable lights finds endless complications and annoyances.
I fully agree that low-tech movable lights are a source of endless annoyances , complications, and fire hazard !

Having made and used the wax torches I described above for a night game years ago, they give significantly more light than a candle, can be (carefully) used for signaling, and work even in a very light rain !

For interior use, obviously, you don't want to use torches if you can make candles.

Historically, not sure anyone would waste wax that way, I agree with you. For most fantasy games, however, that's a secondary concern to the practicability of semi-water-resistant torches.

Last edited by Celjabba; 05-19-2023 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 05-19-2023, 12:47 PM   #18
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Default Re: Wet torch

With preparation, it's certainly possible to make a box that handles brief immersion; just start with a decently sealed box (wood or metal) and cover all the cracks with grease. That's not a lasting solution, it's something you'd do immediately before the expected immersion. While you're at it you probably do something similar with all the other things you have that don't like being immersed in water, such as weapons (or else you put them all in box that you seal).

However, it's almost always going to be easier to find an alternative path that doesn't require you to go underwater.
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Old 05-19-2023, 01:15 PM   #19
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Default Re: Wet torch

An hollowed horn with a stopper is waterproof, at least for a short while. Black powder horn and snuff boxes are 2 examples.

So are ceramic/wood/leather/... containers if you seal the stopper.

But all of those share a characteristic : a small opening, suitable for liquid, powder or grain, nothing box-like.

Protecting big item from immersion was mostly done by
-avoiding going underwater
-wrapping the item in oilcloth and leather, and hoping for the best
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Old 05-19-2023, 01:30 PM   #20
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Default Re: Wet torch

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An hollowed horn with a stopper is waterproof, at least for a short while. Black powder horn and snuff boxes are 2 examples.

So are ceramic/wood/leather/... containers if you seal the stopper.

But all of those share a characteristic : a small opening, suitable for liquid, powder or grain, nothing box-like.
Sealed barrels are generally pretty water resistant, though they're not going to be easy to move underwater because they float.
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