Dodging Bullets, Evasive Movement, and a Proposed "Cosmic, No dodge w/o evasive mvmt"

[Raekai]

Hey, guys!

Is the limitation "Cosmic, No dodge allowed without evasive movement, +125%" balanced?

Originally Posted by Raekai

Sure! Let's just say that I'm using the following optional rule.

Now, I want to make an Innate Attack that represents a gun—just a regular gun, no mind bullets or anything. However, Innate Attacks can be dodged normally. Well, if it's to simulate this new optional rule, it needs to be modified to show that it can't be dodged unless a fighter takes "evasive movement" against the shooter.

"Cosmic, No active defense allowed, +300%" to "Cosmic, No dodge allowed, +150%" to "Cosmic, No dodge allowed without evasive movement, +X%". What should the cost of that enhancement be?

That's all I'm trying to figure out.

Original Post:

One of my favorite Pyramid articles of all time is Sean Punch's Ten for Ten from #3/70: Fourth Edition Festival. This was the first time I was introduced to the idea of a restricted dodge against firearms. It makes a lot of sense to me, and I find it to be an easy-to-remember tweak that adds a bit of realism as well as a heavy dash of tension.

Guns go largely unused in most games I play and campaigns I run, especially compared to how often I personally see powers, magic, etc. In fact, the only campaign in which I used this rule was an After the End campaign, which itself only had a smattering of psionic powers. So, I didn't think much about what I'm about I'm about to propose.

What price is fair for powers to have that same quality as guns from the restricted dodge against firearms rule? For those who don't know, the skinny is that you have to declare evasive movement against one known shooter who becomes the only shooter you can dodge against. Prepare to be riddled with other bullets. Perhaps, now you might want to prepared to be riddled with mind bullets.

I took a look at "Cosmic, No active defense allowed, +300%" and figured I could break that down into different defenses: "Cosmic, No block allowed, +50%", "Cosmic, No parry allowed, +100%", and "Cosmic, No dodge allowed, +150%". How did I get there? The Defense Bonus meta-trait (which I think I saw in a DF context, but I can't remember where). It's simply Enhanced Dodge [15] + Enhanced Parry (All) [10] + Enhanced Block [5]. That's how I got the 3:2:1 ratio out of the Cosmic enhancement above.

Of course, it isn't that you can't dodge, it's that you can only dodge an attack against which you have taken evasive movement. Yet, I'm not perfectly sure how much a limited "Cosmic, No dodge allowed without evasive movement" should cost. I was thinking +125%.

Thanks!

EDIT: I have considered Low Signature (specifically the variant from Power-Ups 4: Enhancements), but that feel quite different and +5% to +25% feels pretty cheap for what I'm describing. It might imply giving a penalty or something to defense (as I've seen argued elsewhere on these very forums), but a new enhancement to match the optional restricted dodge against firearms rule seems appropriate.

[lvalero]

Well. You might as well say that in your campaign ALL uses of innate attacks and afflictions are "a bullet" except if it has limitations as only by touch, reach C, emanation or enhancements as aura or malediction.

[Raekai]

Originally Posted by lvalero

Well. You might as well say that in your campaign ALL uses of innate attacks and afflictions are "a bullet" except if it has limitations as only by touch, reach C, emanation or enhancements as aura or malediction.

I forgot to mention that I thought about doing it the other way around. What about a limitation that makes the Innate Attack dodge-able and parry-able like a low-tech missile? However, I personally think it makes more sense to add an enhancement. This way, there is no change in the assumption of what an Innate Attack can and can't do, and having the enhancement increases the utility of relevant high-speed Innate Attacks. As it stands, I like that, at a base level, Innate Attacks can be parried and dodged like low-tech missiles.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Raekai

I forgot to mention that I thought about doing it the other way around. What about a limitation that makes the Innate Attack dodge-able and parry-able like a low-tech missile?

Ranged IA is, by default, dodgeable. There is a Blockable limitation, however.

[Raekai]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Ranged IA is, by default, dodgeable. There is a Blockable limitation, however.

Sorry, let me double-clarify. I meant that you would have to have a limitation if you started operating under the assumption that Innate Attacks are firearms and thus can't be dodged without evasive movement. Your point is exactly why I don't want to change the Innate Attack base assumptions.

[ericthered]

I've actually used area attack +50% as the base for "Cannot be Dodged without evasive movement", as you can use it to get the same effect. I think I actually lowered it, as you're not getting the increased area, but I forget what number I actually ended up using.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by ericthered

I've actually used area attack +50% as the base for "Cannot be Dodged without evasive movement", as you can use it to get the same effect. I think I actually lowered it, as you're not getting the increased area, but I forget what number I actually ended up using.

Yeah, I agree with this. "Evasive movement" isn't actually that hard to pull off - you basically have to be aware of the shooter, and have a couple of yards of clearance, more or less. It's actually very comparable to the limitations of dodging an area effect attack. I'd price this at +25%, half the value of Area Effect, since it gets the limitations on dodging but not the multiple targets or wide-area injury bonuses.

However, I would also say that this could probably just be a feature of a lot of attacks, no modifier necessary. I'd just say that getting this benefit of behaving like a firearm also comes with the drawbacks - it's louder and more obvious than an arrow or a crossbow bolt would be, and harder to use to attack from stealth.

[Raekai]

Originally Posted by Raekai

For those who don't know, the skinny is that you have to declare evasive movement against one known shooter who becomes the only shooter you can dodge against.

Originally Posted by ericthered

I've actually used area attack +50% as the base for "Cannot be Dodged without evasive movement", as you can use it to get the same effect. I think I actually lowered it, as you're not getting the increased area, but I forget what number I actually ended up using.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Yeah, I agree with this. "Evasive movement" isn't actually that hard to pull off - you basically have to be aware of the shooter, and have a couple of yards of clearance, more or less. It's actually very comparable to the limitations of dodging an area effect attack. I'd price this at +25%, half the value of Area Effect, since it gets the limitations on dodging but not the multiple targets or wide-area injury bonuses.

However, I would also say that this could probably just be a feature of a lot of attacks, no modifier necessary. I'd just say that getting this benefit of behaving like a firearm also comes with the drawbacks - it's louder and more obvious than an arrow or a crossbow bolt would be, and harder to use to attack from stealth.

Just to clarify, I'm specifically talking about "evasive movement" from the Pyramid article (as well as Martial Arts) as I quoted again above. It seems more limited than having to dodge and drop or retreat as, for these rules, you have to do that before you dodge. It seems like this would be at least +50% if not +100%. Also, I'd prefer to not have it as a feature because I can simulate the noise with a Nuisance Effect, and not all firearm-like attacks will be that noisy; e.g., mind bullets or quiet lasers. In this case, evasive movement seems fairly hard to pull off as you can only do it against one shooter that you declare on your turn, not when you defend. That seems fairly potent. If other shooters fire at you, you're outta luck. But it also becomes less useful in a 1 vs. 1 scenario, so I can see it being less than my original +125%.

[smurf]

Originally Posted by Raekai

Hey, guys!

Is the limitation "Cosmic, No dodge allowed without evasive movement, +125%" balanced?

...What price is fair for powers to have that same quality as guns from the restricted dodge against firearms rule? For those who don't know, the skinny is that you have to declare evasive movement against one known shooter who becomes the only shooter you can dodge against. Prepare to be riddled with other bullets. Perhaps, now you might want to prepared to be riddled with mind bullets...

Is there a simpler option?

Are the "mind bullets" TK launched projectiles? Or are they an innate attack with the psionic limitation?

To do what a lot of fire arms do is pretty expensive in innate powers. Levels per die of damage, extension of ranges, accuracy bonuses, and rate of fire are just some to consider.

As mentioned many months ago (hence my tag name) normally to get a big dodge needs a lot in Move (HT and DX) and some increased speeds (maybe 4 levels of outlandishness), plus Combat Reflexes and Enhanced Dodge (maybe 4 levels) coupled with an acrobatic dodge. We are looking at maxing Move at 10 (that is DX + HT 20+20/4) + 4 (for the move bonus) +5 (Combat Reflexes and Enhanced Dodge) + 3 (for a dodge bonus) giving a character a Matrix level of dodge of 22.

Which means when a mook pops up with a Gatling Carbine and sprays 40rof (quite a bit of bonus to hit there and maybe the mook sneakily aimed!) and for ever 2 pts under the hit roll equals the x amount of bullets on target. Given the extraordinary high dodge this character can easily dodge the first 5 bullets but you paying for nigh on 400pts for this ability.

If we reduce the points a bit say a Move of 6 and given all those crazy bonuses above we can reduce the dodge down to 18. Still pretty high but not so 'Bullet Time'.

Plus we have to remember that these dodge rolls can only be made if the target can see the shooter. Will the 'Mind Bullets' be visible? That is it is obvious to the target that the 'Mind Shooter' is shooting (does the Psi go all Scanners, or more like Tim the Bizarre and points at the target?). Are these 'Mind Bullets' resistible by Will Power or HT?

There are quite a few permutations. Can you be a bit more specific?

[Raekai]

Originally Posted by smurf

Can you be a bit more specific?

Sure! Let's just say that I'm using the following optional rule.

Originally Posted by Martial Arts, p. 123

Restricted Dodge Against Firearms: The GM may feel that because beams and bullets reach their mark at high speed, [...] dodging should be less effective against them. Optionally, if a fighter is aware of someone with a firearm [...], he may take “evasive movement” with respect to that one foe as a free action. If the specified gunman shoots at him before the start of his next turn, he may dodge. All of the usual modifiers apply. To claim the bonus for Acrobatic Dodge (p. B375), he must make his Acrobatics roll during his turn. To claim the bonus for Dodge and Drop (p. B377), he must dive prone at the end of his turn (this can be part of his free action). He can’t dodge firearms attacks from any enemy but the one he specified, evade more than one shooter, or declare his evasive movement after being attacked.

Now, I want to make an Innate Attack that represents a gun—just a regular gun, no mind bullets or anything. However, Innate Attacks can be dodged normally. Well, if it's to simulate this new optional rule, it needs to be modified to show that it can't be dodged unless a fighter takes "evasive movement" against the shooter.

"Cosmic, No active defense allowed, +300%" to "Cosmic, No dodge allowed, +150%" to "Cosmic, No dodge allowed without evasive movement, +X%". What should the cost of that enhancement be?

That's all I'm trying to figure out.