Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-10-2022, 06:15 PM   #61
maximara
On Notice
 
maximara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I don't see any incompatibility between these statements. Each character in that tribe who is at the typical tribal Wealth of Dead Broke has Dead Broke on their character sheet - this may be part of the template for being part of that tribe, but in that case it would still be worth [-25] and would still show up on the character sheet. The only difference that would be in play for being part of a template is that it may not count against the Disadvantage Limit, if the GM is using one (canonically, a racial template or similar is treated as a single trait; if the net value is positive, any Disadvantages included don't count against the limit; if the net value is negative, only the overall value of the racial template is counted against the limit).
Right. In fact there are examples from GURPS itself for this:
*Legally Dead — Disadvantages: Social Stigma (Dead) [-20];Wealth (Dead Broke) [-25]. Features: Taboo Traits (Social Position (GURPS Undead)
*Dolphins — "Most have no possessions of any sort and are thus Dead Broke." (GURPS Banestorm)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I would add a clarification to maximara's statement, however - what you get out of Average Wealth is typically set by the TL, but there's nothing preventing a GM (or setting-designer) from changing this. As an example, DF is functionally around TL 4 (most TL 4 gear is present at normal prices, not at the doubled cost one would expect for being a TL early), yet someone with Average Wealth only has $1000 (rather than the $2000 that is the default for TL 4), and the other Wealth levels are relative to this.
True though DF, like most sword and sorcery fantasy set in that time period, looks at the Middle Ages as this TL monolith. The TL3 assigned to it is more a product of its literally origins than anything else.

I love how DF claims that no one Filthy Rich would raid a dungeon. This ignores the Filthy Rich who would raid dungeons not for wealth but excitement or prestige.
__________________
Help make a digital reference for GURPS by coming to the GURPS wiki and provide some information and links (such as to various Fanmade 4e Bestiaries) . Please, provide more then just a title and a page number.
maximara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2022, 06:40 PM   #62
maximara
On Notice
 
maximara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
That would be wrong. Pick any historical TL 1 to 3 culture and the majority of the population will have lower than so-called Average Wealth.
By our standards certainly but remember how low the GURPS$ is for TL 1 to 3: $500 to $1000. It is like saying that since the average life expectancy in ancient Rome was 33 few people lived to see 35 (a popular misconception). It was low because death before the age of 5 was so high. Heck, in the 18th century the average lifespan was around 40 and yet for the signers of the Declaration of Independence the average was 66 with a quarter of them living to 80 or older.

Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted world pointed to how President Eisenhauer was deeply considered because half of Americans were below average intelligence as an example of how people misunderstand statistics.
__________________
Help make a digital reference for GURPS by coming to the GURPS wiki and provide some information and links (such as to various Fanmade 4e Bestiaries) . Please, provide more then just a title and a page number.
maximara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2022, 06:11 AM   #63
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
True though DF, like most sword and sorcery fantasy set in that time period, looks at the Middle Ages as this TL monolith. The TL3 assigned to it is more a product of its literally origins than anything else.
I prefer to think of DF as simply having TL DF - its social structures (such as they are) seem to be an odd mix of TL 3 and modern, their technology generally hovers around TL 4 with some bits from higher TL's as well (I think Delver's Webbing is meant to be modern-ish load-bearing gear), etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
I love how DF claims that no one Filthy Rich would raid a dungeon. This ignores the Filthy Rich who would raid dungeons not for wealth but excitement or prestige.
Excitement perhaps, but it may well be that the default setting for DF doesn't assign any real prestige to conquering dungeons. Filthy Rich means you're probably either an extremely successful merchant or a member of nobility, and I could see both social structures considering delving to be rather beneath them. You could certainly have a few oddballs who delve for the thrill of it, but in many cases they would either conceal their identity and wealth* or basically hire some more-experienced delvers to serve as their guards and guides within the dungeon**. I assume the main reason Kromm opted against allowing for Filthy Rich and Multimillionaire delvers was because starting with that much wealth means starting with too many magic items, although the fact that the idea of it is to be delvers trying to make a profit certainly factors in (there are more reliable ways to turn a much higher profit if you're Filthy Rich or wealthier).

*This could easily be a legitimate idea for a character in DF - assign the character with some Wealth level, and make a note the character theoretically has a good deal more wealth, but cannot access it because he's hiding his identity; such a character may have a relevant Claim to Hospitality to represent the fact he can temporarily reveal his true identity for better accommodations.
**Which can, of course, be an adventure seed - your party has been hired to accompany the ill-prepared Richard McRichpants into the dungeon, trying to keep him safe without angering him by not letting him do anything.
__________________
GURPS Overhaul
Varyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2022, 09:06 AM   #64
maximara
On Notice
 
maximara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I prefer to think of DF as simply having TL DF - its social structures (such as they are) seem to be an odd mix of TL 3 and modern, their technology generally hovers around TL 4 with some bits from higher TL's as well (I think Delver's Webbing is meant to be modern-ish load-bearing gear), etc.
As long as DF stays in its own little world its fine but if you want to go Ravenloft on it than knowing the TL becomes an issue. Gothic Earth is the latest (timewise) of the Ravenloft realities clocking in at TL6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Excitement perhaps, but it may well be that the default setting for DF doesn't assign any real prestige to conquering dungeons. Filthy Rich means you're probably either an extremely successful merchant or a member of nobility, and I could see both social structures considering delving to be rather beneath them. You could certainly have a few oddballs who delve for the thrill of it, but in many cases they would either conceal their identity and wealth* or basically hire some more-experienced delvers to serve as their guards and guides within the dungeon**. I assume the main reason Kromm opted against allowing for Filthy Rich and Multimillionaire delvers was because starting with that much wealth means starting with too many magic items, although the fact that the idea of it is to be delvers trying to make a profit certainly factors in (there are more reliable ways to turn a much higher profit if you're Filthy Rich or wealthier).

*This could easily be a legitimate idea for a character in DF - assign the character with some Wealth level, and make a note the character theoretically has a good deal more wealth, but cannot access it because he's hiding his identity; such a character may have a relevant Claim to Hospitality to represent the fact he can temporarily reveal his true identity for better accommodations.
**Which can, of course, be an adventure seed - your party has been hired to accompany the ill-prepared Richard McRichpants into the dungeon, trying to keep him safe without angering him by not letting him do anything.
Well AD&D1 had it where you were still dungeon delving even after you hit titled level (generally level 9). Heck, the fighter expressly got a freehold at level 9. And that is ignoring the 1,500 gp/week for 1-4 one had to pony up to the guild to get to the next level. To put that in prospective a rich meal was 1 gp; so to go up from level 1 to level 2 your character is dumping enough money to feed 1,500 rich people to their guild.

A titled level character has is a minimum 2,000 gp/level/week upkeep while a Blacksmith, an Average job (per Middle Ages I pg 63), is 30 gp/month as a hireling which per Basic Set is at least $700/month. To simplify things we will assume a Blacksmith is a freeman job with $600/month upkeep or ~25 gp/month upkeep.

Assuming level 10 (to make the math easier) some 86,667 gp/month is being spent minimum for upkeep or a staggering ~3,466.68x what the blacksmith cost of living is. We are somewhere between Great noble and Royal family with the $2,080,008 upkeep this all produces. Just to keep form going bankrupt at level 10 you are looking at likely Multimillionaire.

And if Multimillionaires are stumbling around in the underdark then certainly Filthy rich are. /s

Seriously the economics of your average sword of sorcery world is FUBARed up one side and down the other.


One problem when talking about "dungeons" is "Dungeon — A generic term for any castle, location, or ruin that serves as the site of an underground adventure" (DMGe1 pg 228)

So the Underdark is effectively one big dungeon. Much of the Queen of the Demonweb pits module (adventure) are dungeons and it starts at level 10.
__________________
Help make a digital reference for GURPS by coming to the GURPS wiki and provide some information and links (such as to various Fanmade 4e Bestiaries) . Please, provide more then just a title and a page number.
maximara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2022, 09:42 AM   #65
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Well AD&D1 had it where you were still dungeon delving even after you hit titled level (generally level 9).
"Adventurer" was clearly a respectable profession by default for That Other Game, but GURPS DF seems to treat adventurers as itinerant murder-hobos likely frowned upon by high society, but accepted due to their necessity. Certainly, one can run DF in a setting where being a successful adventurer earns you a peerage, lands, even your own kingdom (perhaps inherited due to marrying a prince/princess, established by conquest, etc)... but seeing as Status isn't an available trait, I suspect that's not the intent. But we're getting pretty far afield of the thread's topic.
__________________
GURPS Overhaul
Varyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2022, 12:01 PM   #66
Stormcrow
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ronkonkoma, NY
Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
As long as DF stays in its own little world its fine but if you want to go Ravenloft on it than knowing the TL becomes an issue. Gothic Earth is the latest (timewise) of the Ravenloft realities clocking in at TL6
Dungeon Fantasy IS its own little world, and the campaign TL is 3. Never mind what TL is listed on equipment in the Basic Set; you can get whatever the Dungeon Fantasy books say you can get.

Because GURPS is not a simulator in which you plug in TL as a parameter and it spits out "you can have this" as output. The first purpose of TLs on equipment is to give GMs a tool with which to define their game world. Dungeon Fantasy does this by saying the campaign is TL3 but that weapons and armor from TL0–4 are available as listed. Because GURPS Dungeon Fantasy is not trying to be historically accurate.

Quote:
One problem when talking about "dungeons" is "Dungeon — A generic term for any castle, location, or ruin that serves as the site of an underground adventure" (DMGe1 pg 228)

So the Underdark is effectively one big dungeon. Much of the Queen of the Demonweb pits module (adventure) are dungeons and it starts at level 10.
What's the "problem" here? (Why are you always saying "the problem is" and variations thereof?) The word "dungeon" in D&D is a piece of game jargon. The word "dungeon" in Dungeon Fantasy is derived from, but not necessarily defined by, the meaning in D&D. In fact, GURPS Dungeon Fantasy has its own definition of dungeon: "A cave, cellar, mine, sewer, tomb, or other nasty, dank hole – often several levels deep – filled with deadly monsters, hidden pits, cunning traps, cursed altars, flowing lava, and so on. Often seems designed expressly to kill adventurers, who come for the treasure."
Stormcrow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2022, 01:05 PM   #67
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
By our standards certainly but remember how low the GURPS$ is for TL 1 to 3: $500 to $1000. It is like saying that since the average life expectancy in ancient Rome was 33 few people lived to see 35 (a popular misconception). It was low because death before the age of 5 was so high. Heck, in the 18th century the average lifespan was around 40 and yet for the signers of the Declaration of Independence the average was 66 with a quarter of them living to 80 or older.

Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted world pointed to how President Eisenhauer was deeply considered because half of Americans were below average intelligence as an example of how people misunderstand statistics.
Actually...you're right. It's Status where the default goes below 0 for the bulk of the population.
David Johnston2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2022, 03:44 PM   #68
maximara
On Notice
 
maximara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
"Adventurer" was clearly a respectable profession by default for That Other Game, but GURPS DF seems to treat adventurers as itinerant murder-hobos likely frowned upon by high society, but accepted due to their necessity. Certainly, one can run DF in a setting where being a successful adventurer earns you a peerage, lands, even your own kingdom (perhaps inherited due to marrying a prince/princess, established by conquest, etc)... but seeing as Status isn't an available trait, I suspect that's not the intent. But we're getting pretty far afield of the thread's topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Actually...you're right. It's Status where the default goes below 0 for the bulk of the population.
GURPS DF aspires to capture the feel of OD&D and AD&D1 and there was a certain "aspect" to that era:

"A typical campaign used to involve a dungeon full of horrible monsters and traps, and a nearby castle or town where supplies and rumors were readily available for those with the gold to buy them"

"Even players with cleric characters did not usually know
the name or nature of the god they worshiped; they knew only that through prayer their PCs could obtain various spells to aid the party."

"The motivations of kings and churches were unimportant, unless they were offering bounties for the heads of particular monsters. War and politics were unknown; adventuring in dungeons was the major activity of the strong and bold, and all else revolved around adventuring." — For King and Country (Dragon #101, Sept 1985)

All that could just as easily apply to DF and there in is the rub. Status didn't exist there either, not really. But Wealth certainly did.

Heck, WoW has more in common with that era of D&D and with DF than with any later version. You go to a "dungeon" (instance), slaughter everything you can find and get gear, materials to make gear, gold to repair gear and/or get supplies.

You may have been taken on all the dangers of Outland, killed the Lich King, defeated the Jailer and might have enough gold to buy every building in any one of the capital cities, pay off the Brotherhood, and still have enough gold to, in theory, set up your own kingdom and yet at the end of the day to the citizens of Azathoth you are just a nameless adventurer.

In the world of WoW just as in D&D or DF you have no real status even if you have more gold than likely is in the coffers of Stormwind and Orgrimmar combined (ie are Filthy Rich if not Multimillionaire).
__________________
Help make a digital reference for GURPS by coming to the GURPS wiki and provide some information and links (such as to various Fanmade 4e Bestiaries) . Please, provide more then just a title and a page number.
maximara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2022, 04:11 AM   #69
johndallman
Night Watchman
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
GURPS DF aspires to capture the feel of OD&D and AD&D1 and there was a certain "aspect" to that era:

"Even players with cleric characters did not usually know the name or nature of the god they worshiped; they knew only that through prayer their PCs could obtain various spells to aid the party."

. . . — For King and Country (Dragon #101, Sept 1985)
That article does not speak for all groups and all campaigns, not by a very long way. Nobody could: the rules of that era were vastly less prescriptive about the way the game should be played than the more recent editions, and were better for it IMHO.

In particular, in almost all the groups I knew, clerics' view of life and adventuring was very much shaped by the nature of the gods they served. The idea of not knowing which god you followed would have been ridiculous: the normal assumption would have been that anyone claiming that was trying to conceal their religion, probably because it was extremely anti-social.
johndallman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2022, 08:01 AM   #70
maximara
On Notice
 
maximara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
That article does not speak for all groups and all campaigns, not by a very long way.
The article doesn't claim to "speak for all groups and all campaigns" rather to the problem of alignment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
The idea of not knowing which god you followed would have been ridiculous: the normal assumption would have been that anyone claiming that was trying to conceal their religion, probably because it was extremely anti-social.
There was a lot of lip service but there was a reason characters getting hurt going "Cleric" became a meme back then. Dragon #92 has a whole host of articles on why cleric did what they did to add flavor to the game ("specifically with regard to the reasons why clerics must spread the faith")

Also it was not so much conceal their religion but conceal part of their religion. The mystery cults of Ancient Rome weren't "extremely anti-social" but rather part of them was secret to those outside of the religion (something that drives archeologists up the wall).

In WoW Troll shamans get their power from Loa (GURPS Voodoo can help with understanding some of that) and I doubt any player Troll shaman could tell you which Loa they get their powers from...or even care.

Heck, the DMG1e expressly stated that "All magic and cleric spells" drew "energy from the Positive or Negative Material Plane" meaning Clerics did not get their power from respective deities (pg 40).

It was so silly that OD&D and AD&D1 clerics could call upon themselves to cast 1-3rd level spells (documented in Murphy Rules as "Me, Myself, and I") If deities really mattered that should not have been possible but that is what the rules effectively said.

Paladins rather being warriors of the faith (regardless of what that faith was) were locked in to LG...even if the deity they served was NG or CG. It was so bad that Horus got his own CG Paladins in an official supplement.

Schisms would be another source of issue with Clerics as well as "daughter" religions. GURPS Religion touches on this and more and for anyone serious about "realistic" cleric characters is a must have.

Going back to costs before this goes even further off the rails. IIRC you can't have Vow of poverty and get points for having less than "normal" income. Though in a "realistic" the vow of poverty may be a bad joke — if monk were really that poor Henry VIII wouldn't have gone around seizing their lands.

Speaking of Kings many of the Middles Ages had cast flow problems. Sure they were Filthy Rich, in theory, but much of that wealth was tied up in land and the fact that armies outside of the knights directly under the king were mercenaries.

Heck, I could see a Filthy Rich noble go into a dungeon for not only extra wealth but for man power. He could harass, via false flag operation, his neighbors with the creatures who figured working for him was better than dying. He wouldn't have to pay them as much as regular mercenaries and they could soften up his foes allowing the regular knights and mercenaries to move in.
__________________
Help make a digital reference for GURPS by coming to the GURPS wiki and provide some information and links (such as to various Fanmade 4e Bestiaries) . Please, provide more then just a title and a page number.
maximara is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
prices

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.