Absurdly high skill levels

[Zed]

I'm curious at what point do skill levels become so high that no about of penalties short of impossibilty can lower them past the usual critical failure point?

Areas of interest:
Combat skills
Social/Influence Skills & Reaction Mods
Job/Professional skills
"Knowing stuff" skills
physical action skills (jump, lift, climb, etc)

At what skill level does the effect from such a skill use become 'cosmic-like'; an absurd effect; the realm where you start pulling off deeds that border on 'powers' (Social skills working on mindless undead for example)?

I'm asking about RAW penalties and there limits. A GM can always bust out non-RAW super high penalties if needed to keep his game in the 3d6 happy spot. What is the point where RAW no longer suffices?

~Z

[Pesterfield]

Off the top of my head I'd say somewhere in the 30s. Most RAW penalties, unless multiple ones stack, max out at -10. So with a skill in the 30s you'll have an adjusted skill level somewhere in the 20s.

Remember 17-18 is always a failure, so anything worth rolling for won't automatically work.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Zed

I'm asking about RAW penalties and their limits. A GM can always bust out non-RAW super high penalties if needed to keep his game in the 3d6 happy spot. What is the point where RAW no longer suffices?

That depends on the setting and the game, if the players are doing impossible things all the time, say like a highly cinematic swashbuckling Three Musketeers type game, then skills will be in the 26-35 range, so that the characters can take penalties for DA and hit locations and still hit on 16-.

I usually find that 36+ skills are getting out there, while anything at 45+ is pretty useless.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Zed

I'm curious at what point do skill levels become so high that no about of penalties short of impossibilty can lower them past the usual critical failure point?

Areas of interest:
Combat skills
Social/Influence Skills & Reaction Mods
Job/Professional skills
"Knowing stuff" skills
physical action skills (jump, lift, climb, etc)

At what skill level does the effect from such a skill use become 'cosmic-like'; an absurd effect; the realm where you start pulling off deeds that border on 'powers' (Social skills working on mindless undead for example)?

It depends upon whether you view skills as exploiting possibilities or creating them. Does a successful Diplomacy roll mean the person is friendly to you? Or does it just mean that you exploited all the friendliness that was available, perfectly?

I think the latter (preconditions) is the only sane way to view things, even though the former (penalties) is sometimes a useful shortcut. Social skills just can't be used on mindless undead; Intelligence Analysis only works when you have information to use it on; no amount of penalties to Sex Appeal allow you to use it to repair a broken microwave oven. (Perhaps you could seduce someone who has Electronics, but no amount of penalty will allow you to seduce such a person unless he/she actually exists and you can interact with him/her in a way that he/she would potentially find attractive.)

Sometimes, even a flawless performance just isn't good enough.

-Max

[Kaldrin]

I don't have my books here, but I remember someone, Kromm, I think, posting about having more than -10 to skill. Deceptive rapid strike while aiming for the eye-slits, that sort of thing... don't even know if you can use those two together, but that's all that came to mind.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Kaldrin

I don't have my books here, but I remember someone, Kromm, I think, posting about having more than -10 to skill. Deceptive rapid strike while aiming for the eye-slits, that sort of thing... don't even know if you can use those two together, but that's all that came to mind.

Yeah, you can definitely use those two together.

[Maz]

Originally Posted by Zed

At what skill level does the effect from such a skill use become 'cosmic-like'; an absurd effect; the realm where you start pulling off deeds that border on 'powers' (Social skills working on mindless undead for example)?

Areas of interest:
Combat skills: are pretty straightforward. At no time do they become "cosmic" because it's actually quite easy to get -30 on an attack roll (taking a snap shot (no aim) at a persons skull (-7), from a good distance (-7) while running down (-6 bulk) a very dark alley (-8) and still suffering moderate pain from the wound you took last night (-2) [and it could easy be much worse than this]), and opposed rolls are commonplace so the opponent just have to be just as skilled.

Social/Influence Skills & Reaction Mods: Are also pretty straightforward. As Influence skills do not gain a better result the better your skill roll but simple means you get a "good result" (very good with sex appeal). And as sjmdw45 mentions, it still doesn't work on undeads or on people it simply doesn't work on. GURPS, unlike D&D do not assume that your skill grants you new powers just because your skill level becomes higher. So anything above 30 seems a bit of a waste.

Job/Professional skills: Again, it simply means you do a good job almost all the time. You can make a crit-success roll on 6 or less, thats almost 10% chance for a crit every time you roll. You will probably be recognised as the best "whatever your job is" in the world/city/nation. But again, 30 or more seems a real waste.

"Knowing stuff" skills: This one is a bit more complex and bordering on "cosmic knowledge" as many knowledge skills default to each other, in particular Current Affairs and Area Knowledge. You might actually know the name of the local smith or bar-owner, no matter where or when you are.... if you have skills in the 40-50 range.

Physical action skills (jump, lift, climb, etc): The speed at which you do these things, like the Influence rolls, are not determined by the skill roll. So it doesn't help you that much. It just makes sure that you can scale the "unclimbable pole", or make sure that you also gets a little bonus to your lifting checks and so on. It doesn't really pay off to have anything above skill 30. Maybe climbing might benefit from a little higher skill than the others.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Zed

At what skill level does the effect from such a skill use become 'cosmic-like'; an absurd effect; the realm where you start pulling off deeds that border on 'powers' (Social skills working on mindless undead for example)?

Skills start to have improbable effects at skill levels in the upper teens; most real-world examples which are seen as amazing skill have a pretty big component of luck in them as well (i.e. Einstein had a high Physics skill, but he also rolled a 6). Character don't start to be able to routinely do ludicrous stunts until skill climbs into the upper 20s, however; at lower levels, the things you can do are individually plausible, it's just that you can do those stunts with unrealistic frequency and reliability.

[Kale]

Originally Posted by Kaldrin

I don't have my books here, but I remember someone, Kromm, I think, posting about having more than -10 to skill. Deceptive rapid strike while aiming for the eye-slits, that sort of thing... don't even know if you can use those two together, but that's all that came to mind.

Yeah, I don't think there's any individual penalty over -10, but combat ones can sure stack!

[Bruno]

The open-ended nature of some penalties and the contest-based uses of others means that you basically can't say when Absurdly High Skill Levels max out the benefit to be gotten.

Melee and ranged weapon skills are the extreme example, but I think it applies to a lesser extent with some other skills.

It seems intuitively impossible that anyone could ever need a Rapier skill of 100. Say you're in the almost-pitch-dark (-9), Extremely heavily encumbered (-4) because you're carrying your unconscious companion, on a rain-swept (slippery, -2) steeply angled (-2) poorly maintained slate roof (-2 for being uneven and full of holes) and you're acutely afraid of heights (Phobia, -4). You're doing a rapid strike (-6, not a Weapon Master) with your Rapier in your off hand (-4, you didn't take Offhand Weapon Training or Ambidexterity), to the chinks in your opponents eye armor (which you can barely see in the dark, -10).

Oh, and you're downslope from your enemy on the roof, giving effectively 2 feet of vertical distance (-2 to hit the head) and he stabbed you last combat round and you have Low Pain Threshold (-8 for shock).

That's only -53 to skill, so you "only" need a skill of 69 to have an effective skill of 16 and maximum possible hit and crit chances, right?

If your opponent has a skill of 70 with his rapier, his base Parry score is 39 (assume he has Combat Reflexes). He's above you (+1) on a rain-swept (slippery, -1 - defense penalties are halved for bad footing) steeply angled (-1) poorly maintained slate roof (-1). He's using his rapier in his good hand, is NOT encumbered, is not in pain, and not afraid of heights. And he retreats, (+3 because he's using a rapier). He gets no penalty for bad lighting, apparently. Effective Parry score of 40, or nigh-unhittable unless you crit - and you only have a 9.3% chance of critting.

You'd need to stack on 30 levels of Deceptive Attack (-60!! to hit) on both Rapid Strikes just to knock his Parry down to 10. Meaning that to flounce confidently through this situation, our beleaguered PC needs a skill of higher than 129, just to soak up the penalties and swing the odds in his favor.

Basically, any ridiculous level of skill a player can get, an NPC can get or exceed better. Any place where skills are contested or placed in opposition to each other, there is no "maxing out".