Capping Attributes for Non-Human Characters

[Chris Rice]

One of the things that bugs me about non-Human character generation in TFT is this: there's nothing really to stop them turning out exactly like humans as far as Attribute scores are concerned. The reason for this is the method used to create them is the usual "starting scores then add points". So although the starting scores may be different the "add points" mechanic means you can effectively ignore the starting scores by adding points.

I had the idea of capping Attributes for different races to give them meaningful limitations. Some examples off the top of my head:

Halflings. Max ST11 (I don't like the idea of them using weapons heavier than a short sword)

Elves. Max ST13 (No heavy 2 handed weapons)

Dwarves. Max DX16 (Not sure about this one yet)

Lizard Men. Max IN13 (no high level spellcasting!)

Giants. They already have their IN and DX capped at 10 so the "capping" precedent has already been set.

What do you guys think?

[larsdangly]

This sounds like a good complement to the recent proposal from SJ that human stat totals have a 40 point cap, and resonates with the original rules for giants.

Edit: But... I would tread a bit more lightly here. Hobbits shouldn't have high ST and similar restrictions on giants, lizard men, etc. make sense. But I would not limit elves, dwarves, orcs in the same way. They are quite close to humans in initial stat distribution and identical in stat total. Imposing a restriction like ST 13 max feels too punitive for whatever small advantages they get. And, perhaps too narrow of a description of what they can be. I want my Gil Galad to have ST higher than 13!

[michaeltaylor]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

Giants. They already have their IN and DX capped at 10 so the "capping" precedent has already been set.

What do you guys think?

Because of that I could support it.

Otherwise I'd feel like it's none of the rules business if we want to play silly, so it doesn't need to be there.

[Chris Rice]

Originally Posted by michaeltaylor

Because of that I could support it.

Otherwise I'd feel like it's none of the rules business if we want to play silly, so it doesn't need to be there.

Hey, if you want battleaxe wielding Hobbits in your games who am I to judge! In the system I regard as the precursor to TFT (Tunnels and Trolls) there's nothing to prevent a Halfling becoming as strong as a Balrog. It's all a matter of personal taste.

[larsdangly]

All games have to decide how physical reality intrudes into their fantasy game; no one answer to this is 'right', but I would say that once you've made your choice you should try to be consistent. Does falling farther hurt you more than falling a short distance? Do people often die when a piece of metal goes through their head? Can a person lift an oxcart or pin an elephant to the ground? These are all questions that can be answered in several ways, but your collective answers to the whole set of them should at least 'rhyme' with each other. That principle leads me to say that 3' tall, 30-40 pound people can never be as strong as a healthy, athletic 6' tall, 200 pound person. It is just physically ridiculous. Some games treat the physical world ridiculously, but TFT isn't one of them.

[schoon]

The simplicity of Fantasy Trip is what attracts me to it.

Want to house rule things in your game - have at it - but I'd prefer the core rules stay as unencumbered as possible.

...but mine is just one opinion.

[pyratejohn]

Originally Posted by schoon

The simplicity of Fantasy Trip is what attracts me to it.

Want to house rule things in your game - have at it - but I'd prefer the core rules stay as unencumbered as possible.

...but mine is just one opinion.

It is part of the beauty and attraction for me as well. I like to keep this simple, and based on the sheer volume of house rules I see on this forum, I believe keeping it simple so GMs can house rule to their heart's content is hopefully the direction the new TFT will go.

As for the original post, I do like the concept, though only as a rule of thumb for NPCs. I generally don't like to limit my friends if their character concept is "Strongest Halfling in the West!"

[KevinJ]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

All games have to decide how physical reality intrudes into their fantasy game; no one answer to this is 'right', but I would say that once you've made your choice you should try to be consistent. Does falling farther hurt you more than falling a short distance? Do people often die when a piece of metal goes through their head? Can a person lift an oxcart or pin an elephant to the ground? These are all questions that can be answered in several ways, but your collective answers to the whole set of them should at least 'rhyme' with each other. That principle leads me to say that 3' tall, 30-40 pound people can never be as strong as a healthy, athletic 6' tall, 200 pound person. It is just physically ridiculous. Some games treat the physical world ridiculously, but TFT isn't one of them.

This.

Also, hobbits and dwarves, being short in stature, should have a reduced MA because they just do not have the same 'step' length as a 6ft tall human. This is not about racism, it's about reality. How many 4ft tall olympic sprinters are there? Well the olympic committee must be racist against short people!

Also, a 30-40lb hobbit does not have the body mass to offset the physics of swinging a full sized halberd. Now they might be able to use their own form of two handed weapons, but they will be hobbit sized two-handed weapons with a cap on damage based on ST. The most buff hobbits might get up to ST 12 or 13, their low mass (maybe 50lbs) won't offset the inertia of a full sized pike, halberd, or possibly a naginata. This is not to be mean to hobbits, but to give a nod to reality.

Now I've always felt that dwarves, being stout (normal mass in a shorter package) are able to use fuill sized weapons for ST because they weigh as much as most humans, they are just denser. They do, however, suffer from short leg syndrome, meaning that they will not have the tactical maneuvering of a taller race like Humans and elves.

Then, all this is up to your interpretation of what the various races are and are not. If you want 3ft tall bricks of muscle wielding 15ft long pikes while simultaneously flinging super accurate thrown weapons, then have at you, just don't expect everyone to take your game seriously.

Just because a game is fantasy doesn't mean it has to be stupid and ignore the laws of physics.

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by KevinJ

... Also, hobbits and dwarves, being short in stature, should have a reduced MA because they just do not have the same 'step' length as a 6ft tall human. ...

Hi Kevin,
I made my hobbits and Dwarves have MA 8 for exactly that reason. My Giants have MA 12 or 14 because of their big stride size.

I LIKE the different races being significantly different from each other.

Warm regards, Rick.

[zot]

Originally Posted by KevinJ

Then, all this is up to your interpretation of what the various races are and are not. If you want 3ft tall bricks of muscle wielding 15ft long pikes while simultaneously flinging super accurate thrown weapons, then have at you, just don't expect everyone to take your game seriously.

Just because a game is fantasy doesn't mean it has to be stupid and ignore the laws of physics.

If someone wants to play "the strongest halfling in the West," and it fits within the rules, why take away their fun?

If a game group wants to play games that "ignore the laws of physics" and they are having fun, they should by all means do so! It's their business what kind of stories they tell.

Some time in 1980 our original GM, Fritz, discovered that, hey, we're really all just sitting around a table, having fun telling a story within a framework we all agree on. Then he posited this...

The Argument Theorem: Role playing game rules should never be used except to resolve or prevent arguments. (Nowadays, I would add "or when the rules themselves are fun" to that)

At some point later he realized that GMs are not fundamentally referees or judges, although they sometimes function in those capacities. Fundamentally, GMs are entertainers.

If accurate physics is entertaining for your group, great. Don't call someone else's game stupid because its physics isn't accurate enough for you.