Emerging smokepowder weapons in my fantasy

[Icelander]

I'm thinking that a 2-3 oz. ovoid projectile made from glass and filled with 1/2-1 oz. of smokepowder* could be extremely accurate and even if it produced little in the way of fragments, would be lethal if it was primed to explode on impact with a magical fuze.

This would be special ammunition for the best slingers, used for personal combat at ranges short enough to aim for unarmoured parts.

I get Weight 0.2 and an explosive damage of 2d cr ex. Don't know what such a glass ovoid ought to cost, but judging from Low-Tech, it's not a lot. Even if we make it Balanced and add a surcharge for the need to have an alchemist close the powder hole in a special room, the main cost is still going to be around $10-12 for the smokepowder and a whopping $250 for the enchantment that acts as a fuze.

I wonder if the same design would work for lead. Is it too soft to contain the explosion?

Of course, that would only give a 1d explosion at best, since we'd have to use very little smokepowder. But given that lead bullets can penetrate human skin and maybe even the skull, that might be plenty to kill.

*This would be done before the hole through which the powder could be poured was closed, which would be done by an alchemist, extremely carefully, in an anti-magic shell, where the smokepowder was inert.

[Icelander]

How good is TL3-4 glassmaking, in general?

Are tiny vials, with maybe a volume of 1/2 fluid inch, going to be astronomically expensive compared to 1/4 cup ones?

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Icelander

There is a decent ceramic and glasswork industry locally.

Does anyone have any idea about the thickness of earthernware, ceramic or glass needed to contain the explosion of black powder? I'm wondering about amounts between a half-ounce up to around 4 ounces, primarily, as bigger amounts start to justify using metals.

This and this should help with the physical design of the grenades.

How skilled/creative are mages in your game when it comes to enchanting purposes?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

This and this should help with the physical design of the grenades.

Thanks.

These are perfect, actually. But how much do they weigh?

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

How skilled/creative are mages in your game when it comes to enchanting purposes?

Potentially, very, but an entirely new spell will take at minimum several months to develop and it might take a lifetime.

The PCs want to use already known magical methods and extant craftsmanship methods to weaponise smokepowder and equip skilled slingers with it, somehow.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Thanks.

These are perfect, actually. But how much do they weigh?

The frangible ones were literally just 1 pint containers. Buy a pint-sized bottle and you have your weight. The ceramic ones are the same size, but the weight may vary, depending on the type of clay used.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Potentially, very, but an entirely new spell will take at minimum several months to develop and it might take a lifetime.

The PCs want to use already known magical methods and extant craftsmanship methods to weaponise smokepowder and equip skilled slingers with it, somehow.

I was just thinking that if your enchanters could figure out how to make a cast-iron mold give clay the toughness of iron (basically, a low-level armor enchant applied to the clay as it's fired), you could mass-produce uniform projectiles and be absolutely certain they'll fragment just like iron, but for lower resource costs. Enchanting anything on the slings themselves would probably be reserved for marksman who stand out, and not a mass-enchanted thing. Still worth looking into, though.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

The frangible ones were literally just 1 pint containers. Buy a pint-sized bottle and you have your weight. The ceramic ones are the same size, but the weight may vary, depending on the type of clay used.

I'm wondering if they are any thicker or thinner than typical 1-pint containers in LT. Will black powder make a boom or a more fizzy-burning type thing if you put it in these things?

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

I was just thinking that if your enchanters could figure out how to make a cast-iron mold give clay the toughness of iron (basically, a low-level armor enchant applied to the clay as it's fired), you could mass-produce uniform projectiles and be absolutely certain they'll fragment just like iron, but for lower resource costs.

TL4 (advanced) metallurgy is cheaper than permanent enchantment, even minor ones.

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Enchanting anything on the slings themselves would probably be reserved for marksman who stand out, and not a mass-enchanted thing. Still worth looking into, though.

So far, enchanting projectiles to release a minor fire cantrip when the projectile is deformed or broken is the most useful and cost-effective enchantment they've found, as it produces fuzes that match TL7-8 ones.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I'm wondering if they are any thicker or thinner than typical 1-pint containers in LT. Will black powder make a boom or a more fizzy-burning type thing if you put it in these things?

Apparently, the first ones were done in the style of a molotov cocktail: dry out an empty bottle, fill it with explosive death, and throw!

Originally Posted by Icelander

TL4 (advanced) metallurgy is cheaper than permanent enchantment, even minor ones.

Fair enough. Of course, enchanted molds would allow for even unskilled labor to mass-produce. Some cost-benefit analysis would be required to see if it's worth the time.

Originally Posted by Icelander

So far, enchanting projectiles to release a minor fire cantrip when the projectile is deformed or broken is the most useful and cost-effective enchantment they've found, as it produces fuzes that match TL7-8 ones.

Figuring out how to cause a projectile to explode a short distance above the ground would be incredibly useful if they still wish to launch alchemist's fire. An air burst would have a much better spread of burning fluid, which only needs a minimal amount making contact to take a soldier or horse out of the fight.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Apparently, the first ones were done in the style of a molotov cocktail: dry out an empty bottle, fill it with explosive death, and throw!

Indeed.

The thing I lack the real world knowledge about is how thick glass or ceramic casing needs to be in order for the explosive death to work at full power, as opposed to just burning rapidly as it spreads (which, I'll admit, will probably be unpleasant to be around, but is not an effective use of expensive smokepowder).

In the real world, black powder is inexpensive and there's was usually little need to optimise grenade design to get the maximum effects from minimum amounts. There, you could just add more powder, use whatever containers were easiest to obtain, and damn the inefficiency.

For explosions of 1d, 2d, 3d, 4d or even 6d, how thick would the walls of spherical or ovoid earthernware/ceramic/glass containers need to be, at minimum (with anything more perhaps reducing explosive damage, but adding to fragmentation)?

I still don't have a clue. Working from GURPS stats seems less useful and even more difficult than if someone knows the real world methods to guesstimate this.

2d is around an ounce of black powder. 6d is half a pound.

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Fair enough. Of course, enchanted molds would allow for even unskilled labor to mass-produce. Some cost-benefit analysis would be required to see if it's worth the time.

There is an enormous pool of skilled-but-unemployed glassblowers and ceramic workers in the city where the PCs are recruiting. It used to be the local capital of the glass trade, before the war, but with the disruption of normal trade, these craftsmen have been forced to take menial jobs or have joined the army. They'd be glad to have well-paid and safe work doing this.

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Figuring out how to cause a projectile to explode a short distance above the ground would be incredibly useful if they still wish to launch alchemist's fire. An air burst would have a much better spread of burning fluid, which only needs a minimal amount making contact to take a soldier or horse out of the fight.

They know how to do this. It's expensive and requires a skilled mage, but they can do it.

Ironically, just throwing a magical fireball is easier than enchanting a ballista projectile this way. On the other hand, the advantage of the latter is that the mage doesn't have to be anywhere near the battlefield, he can stay at home and enchant.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Indeed.

The thing I lack the real world knowledge about is how thick glass or ceramic casing needs to be in order for the explosive death to work at full power, as opposed to just burning rapidly as it spreads (which, I'll admit, will probably be unpleasant to be around, but is not an effective use of expensive smokepowder).

In the real world, black powder is inexpensive and there's was usually little need to optimise grenade design to get the maximum effects from minimum amounts. There, you could just add more powder, use whatever containers were easiest to obtain, and damn the inefficiency.

For explosions of 1d, 2d, 3d, 4d or even 6d, how thick would the walls of spherical or ovoid earthernware/ceramic/glass containers need to be, at minimum (with anything more perhaps reducing explosive damage, but adding to fragmentation)?

I still don't have a clue. Working from GURPS stats seems less useful and even more difficult than if someone knows the real world methods to guesstimate this.

2d is around an ounce of black powder. 6d is half a pound.

Unless we have somebody who does professional work with explosives come in, I'd say get the thickness to the point where it has enough DR for the minimum damage. So 1d explosive would need a 1 DR shell, 2d needs 2 DR, etc. Probably not entirely accurate, but workable.

Originally Posted by Icelander

There is an enormous pool of skilled-but-unemployed glassblowers and ceramic workers in the city where the PCs are recruiting. It used to be the local capital of the glass trade, before the war, but with the disruption of normal trade, these craftsmen have been forced to take menial jobs or have joined the army. They'd be glad to have well-paid and safe work doing this.

Good thing you won't have to worry too much about ammo reserves, then.

Originally Posted by Icelander

They know how to do this. It's expensive and requires a skilled mage, but they can do it.

Ironically, just throwing a magical fireball is easier than enchanting a ballista projectile this way. On the other hand, the advantage of the latter is that the mage doesn't have to be anywhere near the battlefield, he can stay at home and enchant.

Once enchanted, a ballistic projectile is also much more functional around low/no mana zones and any sort of mana dampers. It should also be noted that the guy with enchanted ammo for his sling doesn't stand out anywhere near as much as the mage. Standing out when a few hundred archers are looking in your general direction is generally a very, very bad idea.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Icelander

They are more likely to cast bronze shells, frankly. How would that work?

That should work fine. Bronze is easier to melt and cast than iron. Iron is usually cheaper, when both are available, because its ores are much commoner.