Melee question on HTH

[hcobb]

TFT is cinematic to an extent and the sources do show wild animals attacking torch holders from behind.

You need something like a wand, sword, claw to offend somebody with in order to engage them. This is just a special case of engaging with fire.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Shostak

If the DX penalty is founded upon the animal's being attacked, there are questions that the rules don't give guidance on but which require answers:
Does the penalty apply to attacks the animal makes against any figure, or just the one that made the fire-based attack? What about ranged fire attacks? How long does the penalty last?

I think requiring an attack makes sense and avoid cheesy "we all carry torches in our left hands" tactics.

I would think that the -2 applies to any attack made by the animal on its next action after being attacked that way.

I'd think ranged fire attacks would probably count, subject to GM ruling as always.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

My interpretation has been that a disengaged figure is not required to stop in the enemy's front hex when rushing in to attempt HTH during movement on the basis of having the higher MA.

I think it is clearly required to stop when entering a Front hex. The figure could initiate HTH, but during the action phase.

Not only do I think the rules are clear about that, but I think it's the least that should be offered to armed figures facing something trying to grapple them from the front.

The HTH rules are cheap enough already... letting figures ignore engagement to initiate it during movement would make that already-problematic situation worse.

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

While it's beneficial to come in through the enemy's rear (a 6 roll won't count), it is not required. The attempt at HTH is allowed if the enemy has a lower MA, or the attacker comes in from the rear, the operative word being "or", not "and". Entering the hex from the rear only becomes a requirement if not faster that the enemy.

This part however I entirely agree with.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by Skarg

I think it is clearly required to stop when entering a Front hex. The figure could initiate HTH, but during the action phase.

And yet, we're given rules for attempting to enter (initiate) HTH during the movement phase. You are supposed to move your counter into the same hex as the enemy to make this attempt......

Originally Posted by Skarg

Not only do I think the rules are clear about that, but I think it's the least that should be offered to armed figures facing something trying to grapple them from the front.

The HTH rules are cheap enough already... letting figures ignore engagement to initiate it during movement would make that already-problematic situation worse.

.....and to do so you must come in from the rear if you are not faster. Then what does the "or" mean for those who are faster? Why would Melee (17) even have an "or" if the rear entry was required for everyone to initiate HTH? Clearly the faster figure does not have to enter from the rear, so where does it enter from?

Apparently any hexside that is not the rear. The rules could have stated from a side hex only, but they do not, despite being so explicit about when it does have to be from the rear. Being constrained to come in from a side is conspicuous in its absence. If disengaged but not faster you have to attempt HTH from the rear, if disengaged and faster you can come in from the other hexsides, which has to include front as well as side or it really would have been mentioned otherwise. There's just no other way I can see to read the rules.

Normally a charging figure has to stop in a front facing enemy hex because that starts engagement, and that is emphasized in no uncertain terms elsewhere. But the HTH rules are for that one case where you don't stop, but continue to throw yourself physically at the enemy and place one counter on top of the other. You could look at it as yes, regular movement (walking or running) ends for the figure when it enters the enemy's front hexside. And then the incoming attacker jumps or pounces, throwing their body straight into the other one. That pounce is the attempt to initiate HTH. Then it works or it doesn't depending on a die roll.

Call it just my interpretation if you will, but it's how I see the mechanics of HTH attempts as SJ intended them. He can weigh in if he wants! :)

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

And yet, we're given rules for attempting to enter (initiate) HTH during the movement phase. You are supposed to move your counter into the same hex as the enemy to make this attempt.....

Melee page 18 makes it clear that only disengaged figures can jump foes during movement and page 8 states "A figure must stop its movement when it enters any front hex of an enemy figure, thus becoming engaged"

Hence you have to use shift if you enter the front hex of figure around your own size or bigger.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Melee page 18 makes it clear that only disengaged figures can jump foes during movement and page 8 states "A figure must stop its movement when it enters any front hex of an enemy figure, thus becoming engaged"

Hence you have to use shift if you enter the front hex of figure around your own size or bigger.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

And yet, we're given rules for attempting to enter (initiate) HTH during the movement phase. You are supposed to move your counter into the same hex as the enemy to make this attempt......

Yes. Those rules apply to disengaged figures, who manage to make their way to the target's hex, which means they did not get stopped by being engaged in a front hex, so they went around.

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

.....and to do so you must come in from the rear if you are not faster. Then what does the "or" mean for those who are faster?

The four general conditions for entering HTH on Melee page 17 are consistent in I think all versions of TFT. They're all OR conditions meaning only one of them need be met. They apply in addition to the limits on WHEN/HOW you can attempt HTH, which are based on your Engagement state. The Engagement rules clearly state that every figure moving into an enemy Front hex stops and becomes Engaged. Disengaged figures can attempt HTH during movement IF they can reach the target hex itself. Engaged figures can attempt HTH only during the action phase.

So to specifically answer your question above, the conditions mean that a Disengaged figure with higher MA than their target can attempt HTH during movement if they can reach the target's hex using 1/2 MA or less without being stopped, and (unlike figures with equal or lower MA than their target) they don't also need to enter from the Rear, which logically leaves the Side hexes. The Front hexes would be fair game too, and can be used by Engaged figures during the action phase, but coincidentally tend to be impossible to move through during the movement phase due to the Engagement rules. However, a figure with superior hex side could ignore engagement and then attempt HTH via the front if it had higher MA than the target. Otherwise it could attempt a Push and declare itself in HTH if it wanted IF the target failed its DX roll to step back.

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

Why would Melee (17) even have an "or" if the rear entry was required for everyone to initiate HTH?

Rear entry is not required by everyone to initiate HTH - it's just one way to satisfy the requirements.

I don't know why it's not clear to you what it means. There are four conditions, ONE of which is a prerequisite to initiate HTH. They do not mean that other rules can't also interfere, such as being stopped by Engagement.

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

Clearly the faster figure does not have to enter from the rear, so where does it enter from?

Wherever it can, given the limits of the other rules. Front hexes tend to force most figures to stop and become Engaged when they enter them, so a faster figure that does that will need to obey the Engagement rules and wait to the action phase if they still want to inititiate HTH at that point.

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

Apparently any hexside that is not the rear. The rules could have stated from a side hex only, but they do not, despite being so explicit about when it does have to be from the rear. Being constrained to come in from a side is conspicuous in its absence. If disengaged but not faster you have to attempt HTH from the rear, if disengaged and faster you can come in from the other hexsides, which has to include front as well as side or it really would have been mentioned otherwise. There's just no other way I can see to read the rules.

I think you're almost right, except engagement still stops movement unless you've got some trick such as being a larger figure.

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

Normally a charging figure has to stop in a front facing enemy hex because that starts engagement, and that is emphasized in no uncertain terms elsewhere. But the HTH rules are for that one case where you don't stop, but continue to throw yourself physically at the enemy and place one counter on top of the other. You could look at it as yes, regular movement (walking or running) ends for the figure when it enters the enemy's front hexside. And then the incoming attacker jumps or pounces, throwing their body straight into the other one. That pounce is the attempt to initiate HTH. Then it works or it doesn't depending on a die roll.

Call it just my interpretation if you will, but it's how I see the mechanics of HTH attempts as SJ intended them. He can weigh in if he wants! :)

If the attacker has both higher MA and higher adjDX, and there's no one faster to help the target, then a wolf or something is almost as good as you say.

But if it just happens during movement then it completely ignores any ability to stop HTH except the super-generic one-die roll to see what happens.

How are you supposed to hunt boar (or wolves, or have any chance armored warriors can hold off a swarm of even unarmed tacklers) if you don't even get a chance to use your spear before it's already got you in HTH during movement?

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Melee page 18 makes it clear that only disengaged figures can jump foes during movement and page 8 states "A figure must stop its movement when it enters any front hex of an enemy figure, thus becoming engaged"

Hence you have to use shift if you enter the front hex of figure around your own size or bigger.

The rules of Movement (page 8) are the rules of Movement. The rules of initiating HTH (pages 17-18) are the rules of initiating HTH -- the latter could be intended to trump the former, and if it's not then these rules become inconsistent with each other. Yes, if disengaged you need to use the Movement rules to get in position (adjacent) to attempt HTH, but the attempt itself, the leap onto the target figure, comes after stopping in an adjacent hex; the rules of Movement are "satisfied" and then the rules of HTH take over; you do end up engaged if the HTH attempt fails and you tried it through a front hex, as you're now stuck in the hex you came from -- you can't go anywhere else even if you have unused MA remaining, because now you are engaged as normal.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by Skarg

But if it just happens during movement then it completely ignores any ability to stop HTH except the super-generic one-die roll to see what happens.

Oh, I'm not saying the simple one-die roll to avoid HTH is a good rule! No, but I wouldn't call it bad either, just not the best possible rule. The goal here seems to have been to keep HTH as streamlined as possible. One of those critical points where the game might be at risk of bogging down if things got more realistic. But leaving HTH out altogether would have been exceedingly unrealistic, so it was included albeit in a compromised form.

Originally Posted by Skarg

How are you supposed to hunt boar (or wolves, or have any chance armored warriors can hold off a swarm of even unarmed tacklers) if you don't even get a chance to use your spear before it's already got you in HTH during movement?

By inference from the catalog of pole arm advantages, I'd certainly put the defenders roll to skewer the Charge Attacking enemy before the initiation attempt at HTH combat. It you go hunting boar and wolves with other than spears and bows, you'll probably get what you deserve when the animal leaps at you.

[TippetsTX]

Threads like this tend to make me wonder if a more fluid approach to combat and the structure of the 'round' might be preferable to the strict design currently used in TFT.

Don't get me wrong, the tight tactical elements of the ruleset is certainly one of its strengths, but I think that sometimes the lack of flexibility can be frustrating when addressing the less typical melee scenarios.