"Monks" for GURPS

[chris1982]

Quite important is the fact that this monk is always armed. Other people can get stripped off their weapons, get surprised when sleeping without their armor... And the monk is always 100% fighting ready. So it is actually good that Mr. Monk is weaker on a 1 on 1 fight against a skilled opponent.

Btw, in D&D monks may use "typical monk weapons" (well, at least what D&D designers think that monk weapons are) like sai, bo staff etc. but they usually deal more damage with their bare fists. - So I think some skill with the staff would be quite good.

[JoelSammallahti]

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain

You're better off by far doing bonus damage as innate attack (melee ranged) and NOT taking the enhancement that let's you add your melee damage to the attack (It's usually far cheaper to buy extra dice of innate atack. A) Turn your five dice of damage into six dice -2 for the proice of a _100% enhancement? I think not!.

The effective way to use the ST-Based enhancement is to buy only a small amount of damage, one die or less, but pack up on Armor Divisor, Double Knockback, Side-Effects (such as pain or paralysis), etc., and buy a good deal of Striking ST. Don't forget Dual and Destructive Parry!

If I were making a 'monk' in GURPS, I'd go wild on Staff, Karate and either Judo or Wrestling, and the Feint and DWA techniques. With Judo, you can approach with All-Out Defense, fling your guy on the ground when he attacks, and proceed to Karate-stomp him when he's down.

[Greg 1]

Originally Posted by chris1982

Quite important is the fact that this monk is always armed. Other people can get stripped off their weapons, get surprised when sleeping without their armor... And the monk is always 100% fighting ready. So it is actually good that Mr. Monk is weaker on a 1 on 1 fight against a skilled opponent.

I agree. I would like the monk not to disgrace himself in a 1 on 1 fight against a skilled opponent though. Played straight, GURPS handles armed vs. unarmed combat with beautiful realism - you are much better off with a weapon than without one. That is exactly as things should be in most cases, but it should be possible to produce an specially trained unarmed and unarmored fighter who can hold his own in a toe-to-toe fight. It is unrealistic for anyone to be able to do that, but then, mages are unrealistic too.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I wouldn't actually recommend doing away with being able to parry limbs for damage if trying to simulate That Other Game, though. My rules-fu is rusty in that system, but I believe that unarmed strikes normally provoke an AoO, which isn't that different from having a limb parried in GURPS. Monks all have something called Improved Unarmed Strike to avoid this, so it's specifically monks who can safely attempt unarmed combat vs. weapons.

Improved Unarmed Strike is a feat, with the same cost as weapon proficiency, so it's basically equivalent to having the Karate skill. Monks in d20 do have some ability to do supernatural damage, however (at first level, they do a d6 vs a d3 for a normal person, and it goes up from there), plus an ability that lets them attack more often than a normal person.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Improved Unarmed Strike is a feat, with the same cost as weapon proficiency, so it's basically equivalent to having the Karate skill. Monks in d20 do have some ability to do supernatural damage, however (at first level, they do a d6 vs a d3 for a normal person, and it goes up from there), plus an ability that lets them attack more often than a normal person.

I think the increased damage, in GURPS, is best modeled with having a high skill so you are able to take advantage of Hit Locations, the Chinks in Armor rule, the Lethal Strike technique and other fun options from Martial Arts...

Power Blow isn't reliable in combat until you have it at skill 25 or 30 so you can try it with no concentration time, so it's not good for modeling a high base damage. It's good for some of the feats that increase monk damage in certain situations, however. Similar problem with Breaking Blow. Pressure Secrets, however, is pretty darn good once you get it up to 16ish.

Pressure Points is good for the stunning blow schtick monks have and is of course the prerequisite for Pressure Secrets.

[LynGrey]

Originally Posted by Kromm

One thing that works here is not being parried. You give the monk Dual-Weapon Attack-16 and Feint-20 to accompany Karate-16. Against an armed foe, he always feints first and makes a DWA on the following turn. He always makes Deceptive Attacks at -4 to hit, that's at 12, as his follow-up. Thanks to DWA, the target defends against the strikes at -1. So a sword-and-shield fighter, also with skill 16, parrying at 14 or so with his Combat Reflexes and shield DB, loses the feint by four (-4), has another -1 for DWA, and has a further -2 for the Deceptive Attack. He defends at 7, or at 8 if he retreats. He could make it, but it isn't very likely.

Who needs to do all that.. just Punch a guy with a broadsword and don't worry about getting parried unless he "parry and retreats" If you are punching him, you are in close combat and his shield is a pentalty, and he can't even parry with the sword cause you're inside its reach.

This brings up parry and retreat, which another can of worms, but thats somethign you have to eliminate from the sword-and-shielder.

In that other game they can wear "bracers of protectyness" i would assume they are made of something durable like leather, whats to stop you from saying they can wear just "light" limb armor, or cloth/leather gloves? Or just get the magical enhancement of Protectyness on your robes? This would give you and easily affordable 3-4 points of DR easy on the limbs. But you have to count in the enhanced "defenses of the monk" This is easy to deal with either, since AC in that gaming system is more of a hit or miss with a little bit of "absorbtion" as part of high HP.. why not buy enhanced dodge and parry and limit it with a pact (whatever the monks code is, cause they have to be Lawful or lose there abilities.. that sounds like a pact to me) As DnD characters level up, they would get more and more Ablative DR depending on their class when converting to GURPS, and that stuff is cheap. I mention this because the higher level you are, the more damge your character absorbs before he goes down.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by LynGrey

Who needs to do all that.. just Punch a guy with a broadsword and don't worry about getting parried unless he "parry and retreats" If you are punching him, you are in close combat and his shield is a pentalty, and he can't even parry with the sword cause you're inside its reach.

In theory. In practice, he will step back out of close combat in order to parry -- and get to parry at +1, no less. In effect, moving in close presses him to use the parry with the greatest odds of success (i.e., parry + retreat), which is perhaps not good. Also, getting in close is tricky. If you use Move, he'll step back before he attacks and then retreat when you step back in. Step/retreat mobility in GURPS favors longer-reach weapons.

I think that Toadkiller_Dog's points are well-made, but I do feel that to adequately simulate a d20 monk -- both his ability to go toe-to-toe with weapons and his good AC -- it might be best to give the GURPS equivalent some sort of DR. How you game the DR is a judgment call. Lots of things could work. DR with Can't Wear Armor, -40% and Limited, Damage caused by striking, parrying, or being parried while unarmed, -40% seems fine. For 10 points, you could have DR 10 on the body part in use when somebody parries an unarmed attack, you miss an unarmed parry and somebody opts to chop whatever you struck with, or you slug an iron golem. Yet you'd have DR 0 vs. enemy attacks.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kromm

[...Solutions for the monk's troubles...]

I'd like to remind/propose some other ideas, and ask whether they're plausible.

Use Insubstantiality with Always On (-50%?), Limbs Only (-20%?) and Only when Parried -0%, plus whatever modifiers.

Use the Force Extension (TD: Short Arms/Legs) trick.

Use an Innate Attack while claiming you're using your hands. Innate Attacks do not cause you to take damage when parried, right?

[LynGrey]

Originally Posted by Kromm

In theory. In practice, he will step back out of close combat in order to parry -- and get to parry at +1, no less. In effect, moving in close presses him to use the parry with the greatest odds of success (i.e., parry + retreat), which is perhaps not good. Also, getting in close is tricky. If you use Move, he'll step back before he attacks and then retreat when you step back in. Step/retreat mobility in GURPS favors longer-reach weapons.

Thats the can of worms, but you can take tatical movements and postioning to work it to your advantage tho.. one vs one, its pretty much been discussed to death. Really it boils down to the guy that can wait =) Or who has a ranged weapon they can use easily =)

[Greg 1]

Originally Posted by Kromm

DR with Can't Wear Armor, -40% and Limited, Damage caused by striking, parrying, or being parried while unarmed, -40% seems fine. For 10 points, you could have DR 10 on the body part in use when somebody parries an unarmed attack, you miss an unarmed parry and somebody opts to chop whatever you struck with, or you slug an iron golem. Yet you'd have DR 0 vs. enemy attacks.

I like that very much. It makes the "monk" tough, but his toughness depends on getting using his fighting techniques correctly - he's still squishier than the guy in the plate mail if someone actually lands a sword on him.