[Sorcery] is too expensive(?) for 150 pt game

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Yep, it's useful, but not nearly as much as actual invisibility, which costs the same (or potentially less, as seen in my builds).

Some of this might be my difficulty in understanding the correct "point of reference". I tend to look at the setting and not just the most influential species; something that doesn't affect humans but affects what the players will interact with frequently (including things used by humans) still seems pretty important. Apart from that (and something that maybe I should make into a thread) is how important are the different senses really and the differences between lacking them and others being unable to perceive something by a sense.

Originally Posted by Varyon

No Smell is a case of a Buff spell, which is built as Affliction (Advantage). The Advantage in this case is a custom one simply called No Smell that consists of Obscure 10 (Smell), modified so it doesn't get rid of the character's sense of smell (Defensive), does so by removing scent rather than creating an overwhelming scent (Stealthy), and only affects the character's scent (and the scent of whatever he's carrying or is on him) rather than affecting scent in a 2 yard radius.

Thanks!

Yeah I really forgot a lot of things when quickly building it as a power. Ya know, like making it a Malediction and not just worrying about activating it for yourself.

Delving into the "crunchier" bits, I will still explore new Enhancements/Limitations for "Invisible" is the way to go if you're not worried about altering the underlying system (and of course, one should be at least a little worried about that). Just not here. It might get quite pricey, but since I am totally ignorant of the official approach for this, I would allow someone to learn a single form of being imperceptible and invest in it to eventually expand it into something that covers all other forms, at least when appropriate to the setting and character.

I also still think "No Smell" is a far, far better deal in the standard Magic system than many of us realized; I can't believe our GM didn't smack us silly with guard dogs (that were sometimes present) failing to detect us more often. XD

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by starslayer

Insubstantiality and being 'invisible' to scent: Insubstantiality, as well as its host of other properties, makes someone 'invisible' to the sense of touch- so of the 40 points that make up insubstantiality 'invisibility: touch' is part of it. ).

Remember if you use insubstantiality to be odorless, then you have to get all of your world affecting abilities with "affects substantial".

[rsqrdroberts]

Originally Posted by Emerald Cat

Using Multiplicative Modifiers from GURPS: Powers may make it easier to bring down the point cost of powerful spells through limitations.

As the OP, I thought I should say that Charles Rose replied to my same question on the GURPS North America FB page with the same answer, MM (P102). He also suggested using PK's house rule #5 on FP costs http://www.mygurps.com/index.php?p=i...v=0#houserules

I took a look at it, and I think it does the trick. It makes the point costs more reasonable.

For No-Smell, the advantage drops from 47 pts to 43 pts (please check my math). The Affliction drops from 63 points to 52 pts. The big change that this makes, is that instead of needing Sorcery 6 for 70 pts, the mage can get away with Sorcery 5 for 60 pts.

If you also take PK's house rule #5 that Costs Fatigue decreases from -5% per FP to -10% per FP then the Sorcery power limitation decreases from -15% to -20%, therefore the Affliction becomes 48 pts, with a need for only Sorcery 4 for 50 pts.

I think that is more inline with a 150 pt game. I also like the concept of MM better. Why should a -10% limitation rebate only 1 point for a 10 pt Affliction after the 10 pt Affliction has been boosted to close to 50 points by its advantage? Shouldn't the -10% limitation then be worth a 5 point rebate by that time? That's what (I'm pretty sure) MM does.

BTW, Thanks for all of the replies. I thought this was going to be a dead thread. I love GURPS and the GURPS fans! -- R^2

[weby]

If I were to build a no smell spell, I would likely not bother with the defensive and just accept that the magic field blocks smells both ways.

That reduces the effect to 37 points and the spell to 53 points.
It is still bit silly due to the high cost of obscure.

So I would try to fast-talk the GM into allowing less range for buff spells, perhaps even making them touch instead of 100 yards saving 7 points from the base cost of the spell or make them 10 yards saving 3 points.

Further I would point out that no smell is only really half the Acute Taste and Smell advantage negated, so there should be a limitation on the cost for not covering taste...

So depending on the GM the cost could be lower.

As GM, in general I would change the point costs for obscure and acute sense on the less useful senses like smell and touch to be lower than for vision. In fact thinking about it, I think one of the PCs in my current fantasy game has acute touch +1 at 1 point..

[rsqrdroberts]

Originally Posted by mehrkat

To the original poster if you are the GM just change the cost of invisibility for other senses to what you think it should cost.

I just used No-Smell as an example. There were other Buffs that I thought were too expensive for their effects. Also, the example of the Bandit Mage, was just that, an example. I could have made the B-M any point cost -- I usually don't limit the point costs of my NPCS. I want to achieve the right effect and game balance, instead.

The real problem comes in with my PCs trying to upgrade their existing mages and clerics to the new systems (Sorcery and Divine Favor). The point costs came out significantly higher, so of course they balked at using the new systems.

Maybe the real question isn't whether Sorcery is too expensive, but that, perhaps, the original Magic system was too cheap!

[A Ladder]

Originally Posted by rsqrdroberts

I just used No-Smell as an example. There were other Buffs that I thought were too expensive for their effects. Also, the example of the Bandit Mage, was just that, an example. I could have made the B-M any point cost -- I usually don't limit the point costs of my NPCS. I want to achieve the right effect and game balance, instead.

The real problem comes in with my PCs trying to upgrade their existing mages and clerics to the new systems (Sorcery and Divine Favor). The point costs came out significantly higher, so of course they balked at using the new systems.

Maybe the real question isn't whether Sorcery is too expensive, but that, perhaps, the original Magic system was too cheap!

Yeah, I always thought that the mages in vanilla Magic got way too many cool effects for their point cost.

Below is my take on a [150] point Sorcerer. Assuming a Tech level 3 "generic" fantasy game with a focus on combat. Maybe even low power DF. He has some pretty decent "utility" spells, a battlefield control spell, and can blast away with the best of them.


Macros the Air Sorcerer. [150]
Macros helps the peasantry from which he came from. He protects them from the wilderness threats (wolves, bears, and the occasional troll) with his arsenal of magical spells. He is hard to track due to concealing his scent with Hard to Smell, can also vanish from sight with Fog, and can get out of dodge with his Windstream spell if the going gets too tough. Macros is good with blasting enemies with Lightning Bolt and will smack them with his staff if they get in close. He likes to help farmers with Predicting the Weather and by offering fortunes with his Soothsaying. Macros also has a great array of helpful cantrips that he can improvise.


Attributes
ST 10, DX 11 [20], IQ 12 [40], HT 11 [10]
HP 10, Will 12, Per 12, FP 11

Sorcerers Empowerment (Limited scope, One College: Air, -40%) 7 [48]
Sorcery Talent (One College: Air) 2 [10]

Known Spells: Hard to Smell [9], Fog [10], Lightning Bolt [6], Windstream [6], thunderclap [7], Predict Weather [3].

Disadvantages: Sense of Duty (Peasants) [-5], Phobia (Crows) [-15], Selfless [-5], Vow (Never refuse request for aid) [-15], honesty [-10]

Skills:
Innate Attack (Beam) [4] DX+2, DX+4 if using Air Spells.
Innate Attack (gaze) [1] DX+1, defaulted from Beam.
Staff [4] DX+1, Stealth [2] DX, Naturalist [4] IQ, Survival (woodlands) [2] Per, Navigation (Land) [2] IQ, Theology (soothsaying) [4], Thaumatology [4], Tracking [2], first Aid [1], Hiking [1].


Cantrips (Spells that can be Improvised):
Perfume: Gain +2 on reactions if the person likes the way you smell (no FP cost). [1]
Breeze: Telekinetically push objects away and toward yourself that weigh less than one pound (no FP cost). Telekinesis 2 (Attraction/Repulsion -30%, Magical -10%, Environmental, Air only -5%) [6].
Purify air: remove contaminants from the air in a 2 yard radius. Eliminating dust, sand, fog, and foul smells. Control Air 2 (Cosmetic, -80%; Magical -10%, Reduce FP 1, +20%; Ranged +40%) [7].
Create Air: Create, Specific Item, Air 1 (Magical -10%; Reduce FP 1, +20%) [6]. Fills a 1 yard area with pure air.
Breath Holding: Doesn’t Breathe (Oxygen Storage x25 -50%, Sorcery -15%) [7]. Can hold your breath for 25 times longer than normal.

Spells:
Hard to Smell: Affliction (Increased Range ½ D x10 +15%; Sorcery -15%; No Signature +20%; Advantage: Hard to Smell +260%; Extended Duration x10 +40%; Fixed Duration +0%) [42]
Hard to Smell: Obscure (scent) 7 (Magical -10%; Stealthy +100%; Just the subject -5%) [3.7/level]…. [26]

Fog: Obscure Vision 7 (Area of Effect +150%, Ranged +50%, Persistent +40%, Sorcery -15%) [6.5/level]… [46]

Lightning Bolt: Innate Attack Burning 3d (No Incendiary -10%, Linked +20%, Magical -10%, Increase ½ D x10 +15%, Variable +5%) [18/level] + Affliction (Stunning +0%, Linked +20%, Sorcery -15%, Increase ½ D x10 +15%) [12]…Total [30] Your lightning bolts cause damage and roll vs HT or be stunned. Also, you can choose to just zap for damage or just shock them for stunning with no damage. Range is 100/100.

Windstream: Flight (Sorcery -15%, Lighter than air -10%, Nuisance: no stealth (the wind is blowing really hard) -5%, Environmental: needs air -5%) [26]

Thunderclap: Affliction (Increase 1/2D x10 +15%; No Signature +20%; Sorcery -15%; HT;Stunning; Area Effect, 2 yards, +50%; Hearing-Based, +150%) [32]

Predict Weather: Precognition (One Event: Weather -40%, Active Only -60%, Magical -10%, Reduced FP 1 +20%, Reliable +8 +40%) [13]

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by rsqrdroberts

Maybe the real question isn't whether Sorcery is too expensive, but that, perhaps, the original Magic system was too cheap!

That's a question?

If you're looking at point cost to buy access to variety of effects (or specific non-damage effects) as your key feature, and that's a pretty reasonable choice, yeah, Magic is ridiculously cheap compared to anything else.

It's got drawbacks...Advantages are a lot easier to have not cost you anything to use. Range issues. Not good at straight-up firepower.

But for what Magic is actually good at the only thing that can really make it balanced is the symmetry that the other side can use it too. For odd utility spells you don't voluntarily rebuild from Magic to an Advantage system, unless you're going to be relying on an improvisation mechanic to get you the breadth that in Magic you'd get by dropping a point or two in obscure but occasionally useful spells.

[scc]

Magic is priced the way it is because your supposed to be building a generic fantasy wizard for the same cost as a generic fantasy swordsman. That and the fact that wizards are more common then superhero's

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by scc

Magic is priced the way it is because your supposed to be building a generic fantasy wizard for the same cost as a generic fantasy swordsman. That and the fact that wizards are more common then superhero's

This, really. Of course, you could do a 300 point generic fantasy wizard using Sorcery, but a 300 point swordsman is closer to high fantasy than generic fantasy.

[munin]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

I say that Obscure is rightly prices when it applies to a targeting sense (such as vision*). It IMHO ought be less expensive when dealing with directional but not targeting senses (such as hearing*), and even less expensive when dealing with vague, non-directional senses (such as smell*). … Maybe this calls for a tiered structure of modifiers?…

Obscure is basically applying a partial sensory disadvantage in a specific location. So its cost should scale with the disadvantage it's applying: Blindness [-50], Deafness [-20], Numb [-20], or No Sense of Smell/Taste [-5] (or No Infravision [-10], No Subsonic Hearing [-5], etc.). So Obscure (Hearing) should cost 40% of what Obscure (Vision) does, and Obscure (Smell) would cost 10%. That would put No-Smell into a much more reasonable [21] ([5] learned).