Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by naloth

Multiple Fast Draw attempts on the same turn with the same hand get progressively get harder. It's something like a -2 or -4 penalty for each additional attempt.

Yes, but this is over the course of six turns, and the two Fast-Draw rolls per turn would have to be with different hands, since she can't throw twice with the same hand. So no penalty. Even if there were a penalty, a -2 penalty to a 19 skill wouldn't change the odds.

Bill Stoddard

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

Ciaran! Shoots for the nose! HE HITS!! HE SCORES!!!
When a 1-point skill completely alleviates the need for a 25 point advantage there is a SERIOUS PROBLEM.

I'm not seeing this at all, and I don't think very many other people are either.

[martinl]

Fast Draw (Rock) is "Extra Ready, only to ready a rock, DX-based roll required." This is not as powerful as a genereic extra ready. For most characters, relative reliability will take several points, making the skill similar in cost to the advantage.

As for the benefit of 1 point in a DX-based skill being obscene when you have obscene DX... well, that's GURPS WAD.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

I'm not seeing this at all, and I don't think very many other people are either.

I think what's being missed is this: Fast-Draw is defined canonically for 13 broad classes of items (Ammo, Arrow, Balisong, Flexible, Force Sword, Knife, Long Arm, Pistol, Shuriken, Stone, Sword, Tonfa, and Two-Handed Sword). These skills do not default, so to have DX level with all of them involves a minimum outlay of 13 points. In addition, these skills only cover items that one could believably ready quickly; they exclude cloaks, shields, fist loads, one- and two-handed axes, one- and two-handed flails, polearms, spears, staffs, blowpipes, bows, crossbows, bolas, lassos, and nets. If we're very conservative, then this would add at least 11 more specialties (Bolas, Bow, Cloak, Crossbow, Fist Load, Lasso, Net, One-Handed Unbalanced, Pole, Shield, and Two-Handed Unbalanced). So that's 24 points. Or you could buy Fast-Draw! at DX level for 24 points.

Right up front, then, being able to ready just about anything in no time is a 24-point ability. It could be viewed as an advantage, but note that it might fairly be worth more. First, 11 of the implicit specialties aren't possible via skills. Second, using the skills requires a DX roll (since we bought DX level), and we're waiving this. Third, the skills can only ready stowed weapons to hand, while the ability to perform a general Ready is even broader -- there are lots of reasons to take a Ready that aren't amenable to Fast-Draw. So an extra, unrestricted Ready with any weapon, without a DX roll, is worth more than 24 points. I think that 25 points is fine.

Most people are fine with a few points in Fast-Draw for the weapon they actually use, though.

Note that none of this has anything to do with "anti-munchkin" thinking. It has to do with warping time. Perfecting one rote move that's favorable given the equipment involved -- e.g., "Whip out pistol!" -- is entirely realistic. Being able to warp time to recover any kind of weapon regardless of bulk, weight, imbalance, or position is simply a super-power. And super-powers cost more than skills. Fortunately, they're also amenable to limitations for those who don't like to pay full cost. It's up to the GM whether "I really promise to use this only for weapons and situations that fit my character concept" is a valid limitation.

[Mark Skarr]

I'm not arguing with you Kromm. The rule has been changed and, like it or not, I have to accept that. There are, however, issues that need to be dealt with:

The issue is that the book clearly and unambiguously says that Extra Attack gives you an extra Attack maneuver. Kromm is directly contradicting this rule. As the game designer it's his prerogative (though I find it bad form) to make this sort of change.

The problem with this issue is that the vast majority of people who play GURPS don't come to the fora. For them, the book is the final judgment. If someone tells them something that directly contradicts the book, then they're going to go with the book. It doesn't matter what Kromm, Paul, Andrew, Steve or anyone else says, the book has it in writing. Especially, when the rest of the book supports the newly “inaccurate” rules.

I would also like to point out that the change in Martial Arts is not on page 44 where Extra Attack is listed as an advantage (its entry is pretty much lifted right out of Powers). The change is listed on page 126 under Multiple Attacks in the Cinematic combat section with no coresponding index entry! You'd think, with a major reversal on an advantage, it would have some note like Off-Hand Weapon Training does on page 50. No wonder Bill and I couldn't find it.

[Kromm]

To be fair, Extra Attack on p. 44 says, "See Multiple Attacks (pp. 126-128) for other important details." Note the word I've put in boldface. This is editorial SOP for GURPS books, where we always simply cross-reference if we can avoid repeating text. So somebody who hits the index would turn to p. 44, read that first, and then read pp. 126-128. Which is by design . . . we want people to read the two sections as a single article, but we split it up thematically between "what you buy" (Ch. 2) and "how you use it" (Ch. 4) to keep it topical for the relevant chapters.

And also to be fair, this isn't a major change. Clearly, most people got the sense of Extra Attack in the original work, despite a glitch in wording that I can now verify was an author-author communication hitch. Someone who really wants Extra Attack to grant extra maneuvers could put a lot of weight on that, but it isn't especially important or fundamental to the trait. That importance is being stressed artificially here, as is the momentousness of the clarification in Martial Arts. I'm not accusing anybody of being a munchkin, but I must admit that "You can Ready and then Attack" interpretations border on abusive, if not broken.

Finally, we do issue errata and correct future printings. When the time comes, and it will, I'll be sure to change "Attack maneuver" to "attack."

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I'm not accusing anybody of being a munchkin, but I must admit that "You can Ready and then Attack" interpretations border on abusive, if not broken.

I'd be willing to forgo those, I suppose, if my character can instead (a) take a rock in each hand and (b) throw both rocks in the same turn, taking two turns in total. That actually gets her twice the fire rate of a combatant without Extra Attack. It's a different flow than she's had, but comes out the same over the long term.

Bill Stoddard

[Ciaran]

Buy. Fast-Draw. There are helpful rules already in place for fast-drawing multiple times in a turn.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Buy. Fast-Draw. There are helpful rules already in place for fast-drawing multiple times in a turn.

As I've said before, in the first place, my GM said that I needed to have her put in the time to learn the skill by self-teaching—which is actually not unreasonable, given that she didn't have throwing rocks in her MO when I first played her. And in the second place, Fast-Draw would let her throw two rocks a turn, which is four times as fast as usual, rather than the twice that I thought Extra Attack gave her. Oh, and in the third place, I looked at the rules Peter pointed to, and they assume you're grabbing multiple missiles in one hand simultaneously—but given La Gata's ST, to get optimal damage, she needs to throw steel balls weighing 9-16 lbs., and ONE of those is a handful for her, if you figure the radius of a steel sphere with that weight.

Bill Stoddard

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Buy. Fast-Draw. There are helpful rules already in place for fast-drawing multiple times in a turn.

Read. The. Thread.
I'll even clip that area for you!

Originally Posted by whswhs

She's working on learning it, but I don't have the GM's agreement that she's put in enough time yet.

Fast-draw is not an option yet.

Originally Posted by Kromm

I'm not accusing anybody of being a munchkin, but I must admit that "You can Ready and then Attack" interpretations border on abusive, if not broken.

I don't see that as broken. I see it as no less abusive than letting someone attack with two readied weapons per turn with no additional penalty than the -4 for off-hand. Please enlighten me.