Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

[naloth]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Rapid Strike with thrown weapons doesn't fit the image of what she's doing. Those aren't tiny little ball bearings; they're 9-lb. steel balls, which comes to about the size of a softball, I think—they have to be that big to get the maximum throwing damage. And La Gata's a 93-pound teenage girl. No way she's grabbing a handful of steel balls for a Rapid Strike or Rapid Fire.

I don't see why MA wouldn't let you do them sequentially. (From memory) It's Fast-Draw at no penalty for the first item each turn and -2 for the second. Rapid Strike is a -6 per additional attack to all attacks.

You could also throw one from each hand every turn. Instead of rapid strike, that's just like dual attack. Both are at -4 and your off-hand is at an additional -4. I would let Extra Attack remove the -4 penalty, so you would just need to buy Off-Hand Weapon Training (Perk) to remove the other -4. This doesn't eliminate the need to ready the items (with fast draw or normally), but it will let you strike faster when you have items to strike with.

Her abilities don't come from martial arts training, but from an alien virus. She's just started her first course in karate. She can't possibly acquire either Trained by a Master or Weapon Master in the expected duration of the campaign. And I'm not sure I want her to, anyway; it's a drastic change of character theme.

I would let Extra attack should get you around the rapid strike penalty. Natural speed sounds like a fair trade-off for training.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Kromm

If it would help Bill or anyone else with a stickler GM, I'd probably say that if a Rapid Strike can let somebody attack twice at -6, then he could probably do a simple task at -6 and attack at -6 instead, as long as the non-attack action were something similar enough to an attack (quick, dynamic, based on agility) to pass muster. In the case of a person without Fast-Draw, I'd have no issues with a draw at DX-6 followed by an attack at -6 (a bit like quick-shooting a bow). Further, I'd accept that somebody with Extra Attack could get rid of the -6 by not using Rapid Strike. I wouldn't let players use attacks as Ready maneuvers in general -- only for readying that's enough like attacking that about the only difference is letting go at the end of the motion.

That sounds good to me. Thanks! The restriction's no problem; all I want her to do is grab a steel ball in one action and throw it in the next, one throw per turn. Until she gets Fast-Draw, if she does, and then it will be two throws per turn.

Ironically, the problem is going to go away in a few months anyway: The GM announced that he was ending the campaign, so I signed on for another GM's Call of Cthulhu campaign (in fact, I helped talk her into running it), and now that the GM on the first campaign has reversed his decision—well, I don't have time to play in three campaigns a month, so I'll need to drop. A shame, in a way; for all the rules problems, La Gata Encantada has been a tremendous amount of fun to play.

Bill Stoddard

[Mark Skarr]

Since Bill's problem has been solved, I'm only keeping a little bit of what I had prepared.

Originally Posted by Kromm

My own feeling is that DX isn't the right focus for speedsters -- ATR is almost de rigueur for such characters -- and were I the GM, I'd have said that at character creation.

Well, I agree with you there, Kromm.

Originally Posted by Kromm

At 100 points for ATR, which genuinely doubles your speed and lets you attack lots, move lots, and end on the maneuver of your choice, this isn't an issue. At 25 points for Extra Attack, it's a big issue -- if only because it costs 1/4 as much for the action that PCs use 3/4 of the time in battle. This is why I think that Extra Attack as a small-a attack is the fairest interpretation.

I'm really fine with extra attacking giving an extra attack (note the small "a"), but it's not worth 25 points.
Well, maybe it is.
We're having trouble with one small aspect of Extra Attack. And it's where we have to make a ready before each attack. That's, inherently, a disadvantage built into the system. It's there to keep the munchkins at bay (amongst other fiddling things, like reality). If you have a pair of guns and I run out of ammo and I should be able to swap guns while attacking (obviously reloading would be too involved). If I'm attacking with two swords and one of my swords gets knocked out of my hand, I should be able to prepare a third sword, assuming one was easily available (recovering the other sword would be too involved). Neither of those seem too terribly over-powered for this advantage. And neither would require the fast-draw skill.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Mark's way would be worth at least 80 points, to my way of thinking.

I think part of our problem is that I'm not saying you can use your first "maneuver" to perform brain-surgery and you still get to attack. Not unless your name is Buckaroo Bonzai and I'd still consider that hinky. I'm saying that you can use your primary "maneuver" to perfrom any logical action and still get an attack (again, small "a") with Extra Attack. You want to draw another gun while shooting at your target? Go ahead, heck you can do that in the real world and you don't need fast draw. Ditto the sword issue above.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

Multiple fast draws are possible - check Martial Arts, I gave the page reference before. With her obscenely high DX, as you say, she should be fine with the penalties incurred for drawing more than one weapon per turn.

In thinking this over, I realized that one thing that bothers me about Fast-Draw is that it's a bit too good: I have a character with Extra Attack 1. She goes into combat with a steel ball in each hand, and can throw both in one turn. Now she needs to rearm. So she spends one turn picking up a steel ball in her right hand, one turn picking up a steel ball in her left hand, and one turn throwing. Net rate, 4 throws in 6 seconds.

Now she buys Fast-Draw. She can pick up and throw two balls a turn, every turn. Net rate, 12 throws in 6 seconds.

But neither lets her do the simple trick of "pick up a ball and throw it, pick up a ball and throw it," second by second, for 6 throws in 6 seconds.

Fortunately, Kromm's suggested fix resolves that. It could also have been resolved had I started her out with Fast-Draw and no Extra Attack—but that would get in the way of her melee style, which is what I was originally trying to design.

Bill Stoddard

[Brandy]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Now she buys Fast-Draw. She can pick up and throw two balls a turn, every turn. Net rate, 12 throws in 6 seconds.

Well, Fast-Draw is a skill, and requires a roll be made. I'm not sure what this Character's Dex is, but her skill roll with fast draw would certainly alter her rate of fire from this maximum.

I know you can run the numbers, Bill, so I'm just pointing it out for the gallery. Fast-draw *is* a middle ground here, except for exceptional characters for whom a 1-point investment in Fast-Draw nets them a high enough level of skill that this rate (12 successful fastdraws in 12 attempts) is a likelihood.

[Incard]

Regarding the discussion of Extra Attack itself; myself and all my players have always interpreted it as only granting it's benefits on maneuvers in which the character can attack already. This comes from the part of the advantage that states something like "a normal person can attack once per turn, this advantage lets you attack more". This made the most sense. We figured that an alternate interpretation, like Mark's in this thread, probably would have been worded differently.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Yeah. Re-reading the text, I can kind of see how someone might be able to interpret it the other way, but the context seems to heavily imply that you only get an extra attack on maneuvers that let you attack already. Always played that way, and it never occured to me that someone might read it differently. Kind of like the whole confusion earlier about the exact amount of damage it took to cripple/dismember limbs...

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Bookman

Well, Fast-Draw is a skill, and requires a roll be made. I'm not sure what this Character's Dex is, but her skill roll with fast draw would certainly alter her rate of fire from this maximum.

If she puts 1 point in Fast-Draw (Rock), she has it at 19 and fails only one time in 54. So out of 12 fast-draw attempts she expects to make 11.78.

Bill Stoddard

[naloth]

Originally Posted by whswhs

If she puts 1 point in Fast-Draw (Rock), she has it at 19 and fails only one time in 54. So out of 12 fast-draw attempts she expects to make 11.78.

Multiple Fast Draw attempts on the same turn with the same hand get progressively get harder. It's something like a -2 or -4 penalty for each additional attempt.

[Brandy]

Originally Posted by whswhs

If she puts 1 point in Fast-Draw (Rock), she has it at 19 and fails only one time in 54. So out of 12 fast-draw attempts she expects to make 11.78.

Bill Stoddard

With a Supers game, I thought that might be the case. Still thought it might be worth a mention.