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Old 09-17-2007, 07:59 PM   #21
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
To think the willingness to spend 1 point on Fast-draw could have obviated the need for this thread.
When I built the character, it never occurred to me that she would want to throw things. So I didn't take Fast-Draw (Rock). I bought Thrown Rock up from the default of 15 with earned points, but there's no default for Fast-Draw (Rock). I've been having her practice on her own, but it takes a long, long time to get in enough practice.

Besides, does having Extra Attack let you fast-draw two rocks in a turn? It's still readying a weapon, and she still doesn't have Extra Ready.

Bill Stoddard
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Old 09-17-2007, 08:08 PM   #22
Mark Skarr
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

I just erased three hours of musings because arguing with Kromm is just not relevant. But this is:

What this boils down to is that the RAW states that Bill can do exactly what he wants. He can use his normal action to ready a rock and then throw it with his extra attack. And, heck, it's not so hard to ready a rock, if he's just picking them up, I'd let him ready two in one turn since it's just not hard to reach down and grab some rocks.

However, Kromm is changing a published rule and directly contradicting the RAW. So, now, Bill cannot make an attack without already making one with his other maneuver. So, his extra attack only becomes relevant every three turns as opposed to every turn. Even with fast-draw rock, he can only prepare one rock per turn, so he can't make that extra attack until he's got one ready in both hands. That's pretty harsh for a 25-point advantage.

However, if you act now and buy Martial Arts there is a way that you can do this, completely unintuitively and it's actually a skill and not a power that you seem to be wanting for your super hero. So, to actually do what you want you need to buy yourself a really high skill and then do it and cross-reference it in a different book. Not to mention that this won't let you punch someone or throw a prepared rock, just throw the prepared rock.

Lets forget, for a second, that Martial Arts even exists. This change to the RAW says that Bill cannot do what he wants without taking Altered Time Rate. That seems a bit drastic. His advantage is less effective than someone who takes fast-draw rock. They can, potentially, throw one rock per turn until they run out of rocks. Bill can't. He can only throw one rock every other turn. That seems like a type of love that's illegal in Texas to me. And even when he gets fast draw rock, he still has to ready two of them since Extra Attack doesn't count as an attack maneuver anymore so he can't fast-draw into it, because fast-draw requires an attack maneuver . . . which extra attack doesn't provide.

Ciaran! Shoots for the nose! HE HITS!! HE SCORES!!!
When a 1-point skill completely alleviates the need for a 25 point advantage there is a SERIOUS PROBLEM.

The short answer, Bill, is "no." Kromm's changed the rule to where what you're doing is illegal by RSTBW (Rules Soon To Be Written). But, hey, you're Bill Stoddard, couldn't you eratta something in to Supers to help us?
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Old 09-17-2007, 08:10 PM   #23
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

Odd that a GM who permits Extra Attacks doesn't permit spending earned points on Fast-Draw.
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Old 09-17-2007, 08:17 PM   #24
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

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Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog
Check GURPS Martial Arts, specifically pages 119-121 for its options like Rapid Strike with Thrown Weapons and Rapid Fire with Thrown Weapons. Also check out the rules for multiple fast-draws on page 103. They are tailor-made for what you're ultimately trying to accomplish.
The trouble with multiple fast-draws is that the character doesn't have Fast-Draw skill. She's working on learning it, but I don't have the GM's agreement that she's put in enough time yet.

Rapid Strike with thrown weapons doesn't fit the image of what she's doing. Those aren't tiny little ball bearings; they're 9-lb. steel balls, which comes to about the size of a softball, I think—they have to be that big to get the maximum throwing damage. And La Gata's a 93-pound teenage girl. No way she's grabbing a handful of steel balls for a Rapid Strike or Rapid Fire.

Her abilities don't come from martial arts training, but from an alien virus. She's just started her first course in karate. She can't possibly acquire either Trained by a Master or Weapon Master in the expected duration of the campaign. And I'm not sure I want her to, anyway; it's a drastic change of character theme.

Really, I'm just trying to build a speedster whose basic idiom is obscenely high DX and superb reflexes rather than incredibly fast movement (she can sprint 48 mph, but that's not even freeway speed). I'd be willing to ask the GM to retrofit Extra Ready—she could duplicate her established style by readying with her left hand while she throws with her right and vice versa—but it really doesn't seem to me that Extra Ready ought to cost 25 points per level, for reasons stated in a previous post.

Bill Stoddard
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Old 09-17-2007, 08:19 PM   #25
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
The only way to get an extra maneuver in GURPS is via Altered Time Rate or spell effects (like Great Haste) that emulate it.
And Compartmentalized Mind, right? It specifically talks about (mental) Maneuvers, not actions. And its inherent limitations mean it can't run into the action/defense/movement component stuff you go into in the rest of your post, so it should be fine. Just making sure.
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Old 09-17-2007, 09:09 PM   #26
Peter V. Dell'Orto
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs
The trouble with multiple fast-draws is that the character doesn't have Fast-Draw skill. She's working on learning it, but I don't have the GM's agreement that she's put in enough time yet.
It's the tool for the job. I won't argue the cost of Extra Ready. I don't understand why she can justify 25 points in Extra Ready to draw two 9# balls for throwing, but she can't justify 1 point in a skill that would allow her to do what you want her to do. Who cares if it's a skill or justified by saying she's figured out how to adapt her Alien Virus Powers to get an extra ball ready? It's a superhero game...ask the GM if you can get the skill on that basis.

TBAM and WM was primarily brought up in the rapier-and-main gauche Extra Parry context. It's useful but not critical for those throwing rules.

I guess what I'm saying here is - there are rules that will let you do that. But it sounds like you're looking at them and saying "The visual imagery that I get from those rules descriptions does not match the visual imagery of my character's actions, so I'm going to ask the GM to let me 25 points to do the same thing slightly differently than I could for 1 point or no points." If I'm misunderstanding, my apologies, but it sounds like that.
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Old 09-17-2007, 09:12 PM   #27
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs
Besides, does having Extra Attack let you fast-draw two rocks in a turn? It's still readying a weapon, and she still doesn't have Extra Ready.
Multiple fast draws are possible - check Martial Arts, I gave the page reference before. With her obscenely high DX, as you say, she should be fine with the penalties incurred for drawing more than one weapon per turn.

Ciaran's right, it's the tool for the job.
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Old 09-17-2007, 09:12 PM   #28
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

I think that Bill's problem stems from a conflict of the genus "The game assumes that X will be done via explanation P when I want to accomplish it via explanation Q." Generally, in situations like that, I toss a house rule into the mix. But if you're not the GM, you might not be able to do so . . . in which case you're pretty much stuck with the rules. My own feeling is that DX isn't the right focus for speedsters -- ATR is almost de rigueur for such characters -- and were I the GM, I'd have said that at character creation. But if it came up in play, I'd use a house rule, like this . . .

If it would help Bill or anyone else with a stickler GM, I'd probably say that if a Rapid Strike can let somebody attack twice at -6, then he could probably do a simple task at -6 and attack at -6 instead, as long as the non-attack action were something similar enough to an attack (quick, dynamic, based on agility) to pass muster. In the case of a person without Fast-Draw, I'd have no issues with a draw at DX-6 followed by an attack at -6 (a bit like quick-shooting a bow). Further, I'd accept that somebody with Extra Attack could get rid of the -6 by not using Rapid Strike. I wouldn't let players use attacks as Ready maneuvers in general -- only for readying that's enough like attacking that about the only difference is letting go at the end of the motion.

As for Extra Attack giving a maneuver vs. Extra Attack giving an action: The game's lack of rules for how to resolve two maneuvers executed as one is a pretty big clue that this isn't an "intuitive" approach. A maneuver lets you move and act, and then dictates your defenses. Giving an extra maneuver lets you move twice, act twice, and potentially have two different maneuvers dictating your defenses. At 100 points for ATR, which genuinely doubles your speed and lets you attack lots, move lots, and end on the maneuver of your choice, this isn't an issue. At 25 points for Extra Attack, it's a big issue -- if only because it costs 1/4 as much for the action that PCs use 3/4 of the time in battle. This is why I think that Extra Attack as a small-a attack is the fairest interpretation. Mark's way would be worth at least 80 points, to my way of thinking.
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Old 09-17-2007, 09:24 PM   #29
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
Odd that a GM who permits Extra Attacks doesn't permit spending earned points on Fast-Draw.
It's a supers campaign. In fact, it was the playtest campaign for the new edition of GURPS Supers. All the characters were built in the 3/e version of GURPS Supers and then converted.
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Old 09-17-2007, 09:26 PM   #30
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs
It's a supers campaign. In fact, it was the playtest campaign for the new edition of GURPS Supers. All the characters were built in the 3/e version of GURPS Supers and then converted.
That explains why you can have Extra Attack but doesn't explain why you can't spontaneously "learn" Fast-Draw.
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