New Reality Seeds

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

I do consider this as highly unlikely. France enjoyed abusing "her" victory far too much. And on a national level, the French are far from charmant - they tend to be as sore as losers as they are ungracious as victors. As far as "winning Germany over to Democracy" is concerned, Weimarian Germany was actually more democratic than the France of the 1920ts, where not even women were allowed to vote.

The point is a Franco-German allience with Germany amoung the heroic good guys fighting evil at mid-century.

Remind me...is this scenario meant to be utopian or dystopian?

I thought the loyalist were loyal to the democratic-socailist government?

Now, that strikes me as rather likely. Independently from what happened in Europe, Stalin solidifies his hold over the Sovietunion and begins to arm (like hell). In our reality Soviet armament began years before Hitler came to power. By the early 1940ts, a gargantuan Red Army would have been ready, a juggernaut, which Stalin would have been quite willing to use. That would have probably ended any European "peace in our time" anyway.

So I place Germany with the Western allies for the rematch. Switch up expectations.

Here we disagree again. Frankly, the Americans never had the guts to stand up against the Russians. Not at the end of WWII, not in 1961, not today. And especially under FDR, the greatest friend the Commies ever had in the White House (who called himself a socialist to boot), they are supposed to engage the Sovietunion? I doubt it. Possibly America conquers Imperial Japan (just as they really did), while the Sovietunion finishes off Europe (especially with a weak and disarmed Weimarian Germany things would have been over pretty quickly). Perhaps Britain is so lucky to stay unoccupied - only to find itself marginalized as a state facing a soviet-ruled Europe on the other side of the channel. I suspect that Roosevelt would have readily divided up the world with Stalin. A later President may have regretted that, but FDR would have not.

Cheap insults are beneath your dignity Kitsume. Just because Europe sees America only as a colonial baracks to be bled at Europe's whim doesn't make it so. Containment was a shrewd policy durring the Cold War. In a WWII senario not so much.

If Imperial Japan doesn't attack America, they would be ignored. In our real world FDR tried to bait Germany into declaring war on the USA for months, in this world as well he'd bait the USSR. As most of the "isolationists" were right-wingers, he'd probably have an easier time of getting America into the war Against Russia.

[Astromancer]

Let's muck around with 18th century Russia for a bit.

Tsar Paul (son of Catherine the Great) wanted to invade India overland. Have Catherine and Potemkin see this as a way to keep him out of their hair. Potemkin gets roads build and forts stocked all the way to the Aral Sea. Paul works on building his road to India. He doesn't make it, but later Tsars have a leg up on the Great Game. Russia and Britain fight multiple wars in Afganistan.

Picture it as an exotic spy game played out from the Dardenells to China!

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Let's muck around with 18th century Russia for a bit.

Tsar Paul (son of Catherine the Great) wanted to invade India overland. Have Catherine and Potemkin see this as a way to keep him out of their hair. Potemkin gets roads build and forts stocked all the way to the Aral Sea. Paul works on building his road to India. He doesn't make it, but later Tsars have a leg up on the Great Game. Russia and Britain fight multiple wars in Afganistan.

Pisture it as an exotic spy game played out from the Dardenells to China!

Thats sort of what happened in real life. Tournament of Shadows is an excellent introduction, even if the "cast of thousands" starts to get confusing. There did seem to be a lot of 'intelligence activity' across central Asia.

So maybe with the resources acquired by this transport network Russia has a better economy. Not only money and raw materials but ideas - although I guess a lot of things would have had to change in Russia to allow a technological breakthrough to be accepted. Anyway, you still have a crazy monarchy and probably military disasters (but more limited). You don't get starving peasants, power crazed patricians and a military ready to order massacres but face revolts when they actually give the orders. No Bolsheviks, no communist rise to power, no Stalin (or at least a Stalin that is a minor terrorist revolutionary). So you get a Russia that looks like the Russia of Cornwallis (G:AE2), except you mostly still get a US and a recognizable Europe. Britain might be a little more hard pressed, or it might be more powerful as well since its facing off against a bigger threat.

[Astromancer]

Try this line of attack. In the mid-19th century (of my alt-Russia timeline) a Czar decides that he needs to build a railroad along Potemkin's road and then around the Aral Sea to Paul's roads, and from there to the borders of Aganistan. In our history no such rail roal was built until the 1950's. If the Russians can race troops and supplies from their core to Afganistan a late 19th century conquest of Afganistan becomes possible (not stable). No allience between Britain and Russia is possible. France can't get both as allies. This means a longer period of political jockeying before anything like WWI.

This leads to much more espionage activity in the period and a WWI that could start at the Kyber Pass with fronts over a much longer area. Also, the possibility of shifting alliences durring the war and maybe more than two power blocks.

[VulpesFulva]

A wainscot Myth Parallel, after a fashion: Lemuel Gulliver not only existed, but he was also an unwitting Jumper.

On his last voyage home, a Houynhm is caught in his transit... and was nowhere near as restrained as Gulliver was on encountering "savage" versions of his species.

This leads eventually to Black Beauty being an actual autobiography, and Francis the Talking Mule and Mister Ed being actual events mid-20th century. I'll leave the John Candy and Bob Goldthwait opus Hot to Trot open to interpretation.

What other famous equines would be uplifted horses or debased Houynhm?

Alternatively, other hidden intelligent animal shows as documentary?

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by VulpesFulva

What other famous equines would be uplifted horses or debased Houynhm?

According to the jockeys who rode him in OTL, Northern Dancer posed for the cameras - he knew enough to recognize the difference between "being paid attention to" and "being photographed". It wouldn't be a stretch to say he's smarter than most in this alternate.

EDIT: Considering how many champions he sired, I wouldn't be surprised to see the 2014 Kentucky Derby in this alternate being run by horses without jockeys. Having the mile-and-a-quarter be an Olympic sport might be pushing things a bit, though.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by VulpesFulva

A wainscot Myth Parallel, after a fashion: Lemuel Gulliver not only existed, but he was also an unwitting Jumper.

On his last voyage home, a Houynhm is caught in his transit... and was nowhere near as restrained as Gulliver was on encountering "savage" versions of his species.

This leads eventually to Black Beauty being an actual autobiography, and Francis the Talking Mule and Mister Ed being actual events mid-20th century. I'll leave the John Candy and Bob Goldthwait opus Hot to Trot open to interpretation.

What other famous equines would be uplifted horses or debased Houynhm?

Alternatively, other hidden intelligent animal shows as documentary?

The Houynhm had their dark side, few other than the Sorrel Nag could feel love, compassion, or empathy. The Houynhm as Secret Masters anyone?

[VulpesFulva]

PCs would not expect it, I'm sure. The real genius behind a Confederate Cavalry General: His horse.

Presumably horsemanship would become more important in the upper echelons, and a pattern for conspiracy theorists to latch on would be the number of stables "owned" by those in power.

Man, that could be downright eerie if run correctly. An apparent shift of equitation replacing Golf as the prestige pastime. And listening in, it sounds like a proper discussion of pedigree and arranging a stud session, except the eavesdropper slowly realizes that the mounts are not being discussed, but the riders.

If the GM is feeling charitable, he can give the Houynhm-alikes a visible "tell," and still allow for "savage" stock to still exist.

Hm. May have to date Gulliver's travels and figure how many neo-Houhynms are possible...

Gulliver's trip to the land of Houhynms ended in 1715, allowing for the first neo-foals to be born in 1716. If they use a RL horse gestation and life cycle, one generation every 5 to 6 years, with lifespans to 40 or 50.

An important "crux" for how widespread neo-Houhynms are would depend on whether our "progenitor" is a mare or a stallion. Another would be if an important lineage is tied in, like say, Figure, the foundation sire of the Morgan Horse breed.

Figure's descendants would go on to become important in other American breeds like thoroughbreds and quarter horses, but their biggest contribution was as cavalry mounts until the US Army phased out horse cavalry. So, a Morgan Houhynm attaches himself to a bright up-and-coming cavalry officer, spreads influence through making him "gift" members of the social circle with "Morgan's" get, building their political capital through extremely pragmatic logic with orange and blue morality...

[Astromancer]

Try this, Hitler was fascinated with Greco-Roman Classical antiquity, this is a known fact. Hitler also disliked Himler's interest in German antiquity. "Why advertise that we have no past?" was Hitler's view of Himler's passions. Have Himler's pet weirdos in the Ahnenerbe publically embarass Hitler, or have him think they have.

If this leads to Hitler firing Himler and key SS personel like Reinhard Heydrich, the Shoah would be caried out far less efficiently. The survival of a few million people can lead to vast knock-on effects.

Sending PCs to arrange a public humilliation of Hitler that would bring down Himler and Heydrich could be a grand campaign.

[Astromancer]

Bringing down Himler and Heydrich early would net another benefit. Speer and Goebbels only kept from each other's throats because they both feared Himler. Get rid of Himler (and Heydrich who could have replaced him and been better at his job) and Speer and Goebbels end up wasting all their energies on fighting each other. The 3rd Reich would fall early. Heck, they might get rid of Admiral Donitz and vastly reduce the Nazi threat in the Atlantic.