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Old 02-15-2018, 12:10 PM   #11
Jareth Valar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Default Re: Martial Arts, Kusari and Rope Dart conundrum

Some problems with altering and/or making your own. Some are a nit too generous with things (my category) and some GM's (3 out of my last 5) will only use what is officially printed, official errata, or in officially produced optional material (i.e. Pyramid).
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Old 02-15-2018, 02:46 PM   #12
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: Martial Arts, Kusari and Rope Dart conundrum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jareth Valar View Post
Some problems with altering and/or making your own. Some are a nit too generous with things (my category) and some GM's (3 out of my last 5) will only use what is officially printed, official errata, or in officially produced optional material (i.e. Pyramid).
Well on the first point so long as you price according to the format there will be no risk of being too generous. Remember if you weren't use styles at all you'd just pay the points for the kusari skill as it appears in the characters book.

On the second I can't offer much help. As a GM I try and make what's allowed a conversation, but I'm not every GM. Have you tried showing your GM proof that weapons covered by the kusari skill in GURPS appear in Chinese martial arts (not forgetting to point out you're happy to pay the points for accessing it).

Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-15-2018 at 11:44 PM.
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Old 02-15-2018, 03:38 PM   #13
Jareth Valar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Default Re: Martial Arts, Kusari and Rope Dart conundrum

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Well on the first point so long as price according to the format there will be no risk of being listener's. Remember if you weren't use styles at all you'd just pay the points for the kusari skill as it appears in the characters book.
True enough

Quote:
On the second I can't offer much help. As a GM I try and make what's allowed a conversation, but I'm not every GM. Have you tried showing your GM proof that weapons covered by the kusari skill in GURPS appear in Chinese martial arts (not forgetting to point out you're happy to pay the points for accessing it).
Part of the reason I have come here, for some additional view points.

Also, per the Errata thread, if there is something that you are unsure is an error, post it to the forum. It has been posted, and so far, it is no clearer. Apparently I seem to be the only one to voice any thoughts on this matter in that way.
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Old 02-16-2018, 12:03 AM   #14
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Martial Arts, Kusari and Rope Dart conundrum

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Originally Posted by Jareth Valar View Post
True enough



Part of the reason I have come here, for some additional view points.

Also, per the Errata thread, if there is something that you are unsure is an error, post it to the forum. It has been posted, and so far, it is no clearer. Apparently I seem to be the only one to voice any thoughts on this matter in that way.
Well to be honest you've had an answer* just not one involving official errata. The thing is we may not be dealing with an error that requires correction, but rather a missing real life example of martial arts that don't have a write up in a 60pg section that has:

"Below is a selection of historical and modern martial
arts. It’s only a small sampling, highlighting widely known
or interesting styles. There are hundreds if not thousands of
styles – and many have numerous sub-schools or regional or
ethnic variants, or looked quite different at various points
during their history."


As an opening paragraph

I'd say it's implicit that not only is the following list not exhaustive but adding in you own or amending the one's there is perfectly reasonable


*EDIT: not that I'm claiming to be a GURPS authority who's opinions hold significant weight!

Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-16-2018 at 02:28 AM.
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Old 02-16-2018, 01:51 AM   #15
Jareth Valar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Default Re: Martial Arts, Kusari and Rope Dart conundrum

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Well to be honest you've had an answer just not one involving official errata. The thing is we may not be dealing with an error that requires correction, but rather a missing real life example of martial arts that don't have a write up in a 60pg section that has:

"Below is a selection of historical and modern martial
arts. It’s only a small sampling, highlighting widely known
or interesting styles. There are hundreds if not thousands of
styles – and many have numerous sub-schools or regional or
ethnic variants, or looked quite different at various points
during their history."


As an opening paragraph

I'd say it's implicit that not only is the following list not exhaustive but adding in you own or amending the one's there is perfectly reasonable
See, that's the thing. If it was just an omission I would have no problem with it in any way. I understand that there are hundreds of styles and variations that would be impossible to include much less research. My issue is the fact that several styles that use those weapons in their training (easy to find with just google and my own experiences) only possess Whip and/or Whip Art and not Kusari/Kusari Art but are not known to use Whips, Light Whips nor Urumi. Examples:

Hung Gar - mentions whip in the description and offers whip as an optional skill. Hung Gar teaches Chain Whip and Double Chain Whip (Kusari weapons)
Pak Hok - This is the most glaring example. In the description it specifically mentions Chain Whip, yet gives the Whip skill not Kusari as an optional skill.
Shaolin - Gives Whip and Whip Art as optional skills, however a Google search shows several school websites showing and mentioning Chain Whip.
Wushu - Gives Whip Art as an optional skill. As per its description Wushu was created from several styles including Northern "Long" kung-fu (i.e. Chángquán). The Wiki page for Chángquán mentions Chain and Metoer Hammer as weapons forms. Also looking up Rope Dart, it mentions Wushu as a style and also says that Chain Whip is often learned first before Rope Dart is taught in Wushu.

Now there are a few more styles that offer Whip as a skill but I am unfamiliar with and/or can find no reference to whips or kusari like weapons known (Bando, la Canne de Combat, Savate) so I have no issue here.

So, omitted isn't the issue, it's something in error IMHO. Now whether the error is to change the skill, the weapon usage, or something else I don't know. I am not that skilled enough in GURPS to make that suggestion/call. That's the reason I brought to the forum, per the errata thread. Apparently I didn't explain myself well enough, my apologies.
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Old 02-16-2018, 02:59 AM   #16
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Martial Arts, Kusari and Rope Dart conundrum

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Originally Posted by Jareth Valar View Post
See, that's the thing. If it was just an omission I would have no problem with it in any way. I understand that there are hundreds of styles and variations that would be impossible to include much less research. My issue is the fact that several styles that use those weapons in their training (easy to find with just google and my own experiences) only possess Whip and/or Whip Art and not Kusari/Kusari Art but are not known to use Whips, Light Whips nor Urumi. Examples:

Hung Gar - mentions whip in the description and offers whip as an optional skill. Hung Gar teaches Chain Whip and Double Chain Whip (Kusari weapons)
OK a quick look into Hung Gar tells me it is a very varied form, with various traditions within it, so yeah you want to practice one of the forms with kusari weapons in it add Kusari skill into the lared long list of optional skills.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Jareth Valar View Post
Pak Hok - This is the most glaring example. In the description it specifically mentions Chain Whip, yet gives the Whip skill not Kusari as an optional skill.
That's fair enough but as an errata we're talking about adding another weapon skill into a list of optional weapon skills.

Moreover we're only doing that so your GM can see it in the list, despite the pretty clear inference throughout this section that these style write ups are pretty inherently malleable and open to user adaptation and interpretation


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Originally Posted by Jareth Valar View Post
Shaolin - Gives Whip and Whip Art as optional skills, however a Google search shows several school websites showing and mentioning Chain Whip.
Well Shaolin is like the ur example of a wide umbrella of stuff, so basically see Hung Gar above. From the style write up:

"Finding a Shaolin Kung Fu instructor in the modern
world isn’t difficult – but many of these schools actually
teach other kung fu styles, or Wushu (pp. 206-207), under
the Shaolin name."



More relevently for weapon use in the actual write up it says:

"Shaolin monks also learned (or at least had access to
training in) many other weapon skills. There are stories of
monks using nearly every Chinese weapon"



and then lists a pretty long list of weapon skills in the optional skills section. So add in Kusari no issue. But more importantly there's nothing saying someone who's spent points in the Shaolin style write up in MA can't then spend points on weapon skills outside the style listing! These are not either/or things (especially considering the nature of MA development)!

You got proof that The Shaolin monks uses such weapons in the way the Kusari skill uses them then cool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jareth Valar View Post
Wushu - Gives Whip Art as an optional skill. As per its description Wushu was created from several styles including Northern "Long" kung-fu (i.e. Chángquán). The Wiki page for Chángquán mentions Chain and Metoer Hammer as weapons forms. Also looking up Rope Dart, it mentions Wushu as a style and also says that Chain Whip is often learned first before Rope Dart is taught in Wushu.
Again see Haung Gar (but fair point about chain whip being a precursor to rope dart).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jareth Valar View Post
Now there are a few more styles that offer Whip as a skill but I am unfamiliar with and/or can find no reference to whips or kusari like weapons known (Bando, la Canne de Combat, Savate) so I have no issue here.

So, omitted isn't the issue, it's something in error IMHO. Now whether the error is to change the skill, the weapon usage, or something else I don't know. I am not that skilled enough in GURPS to make that suggestion/call. That's the reason I brought to the forum, per the errata thread. Apparently I didn't explain myself well enough, my apologies.
OK like I said earlier I do find the Whip/Kusari split a bit odd at times, to me were talking about several weapons with significant overlap in how they are used here (and what skill they represent in GURPS terms).

You have to remember that not only are the Martial Style write ups in MA convenient groupings of mechanics for a RPG system, so are the different weapon skills, and so the weapons that fall under them at times!

So to me it's reasonable to be *ahem* flexible when looking at the Kusari skill!

Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-16-2018 at 05:58 AM.
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Old 02-16-2018, 03:53 AM   #17
Jareth Valar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Default Re: Martial Arts, Kusari and Rope Dart conundrum

Tomsdad, you and I share a viewpoint on a way to handle things. I would just change it and be done in my own games. All of your points are perfectly valid.

However, I feel this is an actual error and should be in the errata. I just brought it here per protocol. Now the thing with errata, most publishers (definitely not all) actually want the feedback for their product. They want it to be as error free as possible (you would think so anyway). True, they go through playtesting and editors (well some companies anyway) but all are still human. Most errata I have seen on forums and posted is purely grammatical in error. You missed a comma here, and apostrophe there. Some are content issues that come up after publication. Some errata sets added into future prints, some stay as downloadable content.

Basically, just because there is an easy work around doesn't mean it's not a error.

I appreciate the discussion and your help and insight. Thanks
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Old 02-16-2018, 04:07 AM   #18
Tomsdad
 
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Location: Brighton
Default Re: Martial Arts, Kusari and Rope Dart conundrum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jareth Valar View Post
Tomsdad, you and I share a viewpoint on a way to handle things. I would just change it and be done in my own games. All of your points are perfectly valid.

However, I feel this is an actual error and should be in the errata. I just brought it here per protocol. Now the thing with errata, most publishers (definitely not all) actually want the feedback for their product. They want it to be as error free as possible (you would think so anyway). True, they go through playtesting and editors (well some companies anyway) but all are still human. Most errata I have seen on forums and posted is purely grammatical in error. You missed a comma here, and apostrophe there. Some are content issues that come up after publication. Some errata sets added into future prints, some stay as downloadable content.

Basically, just because there is an easy work around doesn't mean it's not a error.

I appreciate the discussion and your help and insight. Thanks
Fair enough (and no worries), I guess I'd say not everything that could at times require a work around or adjustment to get a preferred end result qualifies as a errata worthy error.

To me there is enough ambiguity and implied flexibility built into the MA styles system and listings to cover the change you desire and making it.

But if you want something more solid I suggest request the errata, or you could PM a recognised GURPS authority here on the forum and point your GM at any response


(Hang on I'll do that latter one, let's see if we can get "word of Kromm" on this)

Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-16-2018 at 04:46 AM.
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Old 02-16-2018, 04:24 AM   #19
Jareth Valar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Default Re: Martial Arts, Kusari and Rope Dart conundrum

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Fair enough (and no worries), I guess I'd say not everything that could at times require a work around or adjustment to a preferred end result qualifies as a errata worthy error.

To me there is enough ambiguity and implied flexibility built into the MA styles systems and listings to cover the change you desire.

But if you want something more solid I suggest request the errata or you could PM a recognised GURPS authority here on the forum and point your GM at any response


(Hang on I'll do that latter one, let's see if we can get "word of Kromm" on this)
Much appreciated. Should have thought of that to begin with...DOHT!

And I can understand your view. Thanks for the discussion.
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Old 02-16-2018, 04:38 AM   #20
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Martial Arts, Kusari and Rope Dart conundrum

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Originally Posted by Jareth Valar View Post
Much appreciated. Should have thought of that to begin with...DOHT!

And I can understand your view. Thanks for the discussion.
No worries, and I can understand your's too.

Cheers

TD

Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-16-2018 at 05:53 AM.
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