Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Board and Card Games > Ogre and G.E.V.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-27-2018, 12:22 PM   #71
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
Even better. I'd really like to see this in the OGRE PC game on STEAM...I'd pay extra for it as a DLC add on. It's a simple and elegant rule and brings something special and complimentary to the game play that Imho has been missing. After 40 years of playing OGRE, you just made my OGREverse more enjoyable!
Thanks for sharing this. :)

Is it alright if I mention this over on the OGRE PC game Forums and ask if it may be possible to implement this as DLC for the game? Yes, this is that good. Since it would be DLC, people who don't want to use it don't have to.
You’re welcome and yes, you can share it.
tbeard1999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2018, 12:00 AM   #72
Tim Kauffman
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pennsylvania
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Thanks.

I just had a question about OGREs using this.

How would OGREs work using Hold-Fire? Could they Hold-Fire some of their weapons or would they have to Hold-Fire all weapons to use this?
__________________
"So I stood my ground...my only hope to die as I had always lived-fighting" John Carter of Mars
Tim Kauffman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2018, 12:37 AM   #73
ColBosch
 
ColBosch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

I would not recommend using hold fire in games using Ogres. I mentioned it before, but one of the key tactics to defeating cybertanks is to use GEVs in "slashing" attacks. It's the entire reason GEVs have split movement, to allow them to move in, attack, and make something of an escape. If Ogres can hold fire, then it allows them to decimate GEVs on their own terms.
ColBosch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2018, 02:43 PM   #74
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
I would not recommend using hold fire in games using Ogres. I mentioned it before, but one of the key tactics to defeating cybertanks is to use GEVs in "slashing" attacks. It's the entire reason GEVs have split movement, to allow them to move in, attack, and make something of an escape. If Ogres can hold fire, then it allows them to decimate GEVs on their own terms.
I agree that Hold Fire *probably* shouldn’t be used in pure Ogre games. I want to playtest it though. I would use it in GEV games that involve Ogres, though.
tbeard1999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2018, 03:03 PM   #75
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
I would not recommend using hold fire in games using Ogres. I mentioned it before, but one of the key tactics to defeating cybertanks is to use GEVs in "slashing" attacks. It's the entire reason GEVs have split movement, to allow them to move in, attack, and make something of an escape. If Ogres can hold fire, then it allows them to decimate GEVs on their own terms.
Yes, I think that hold fire will make GEVs a bit less valuable because it does make the GEV's unique "slashing" attack less viable, at least in situations where the Ogre has enough weapons to target the GEVs.

How much, I don't know.

Currently, the Cobb equation makes GEVs worth about 6.57 points - about the same as missile tanks (6.9 pts) and heavy tanks (6.14 pts). Light tanks are worth about 3.57 points. An obvious adjustment might be to make GEVs worth (say) 4.5 or 5 points in classic Ogre games that use hold fire.

In GEV games, I think that the effect is significantly reduced. Also, the GEV's ability to move faster on roads and rivers becomes a factor. So maybe leave the GEV point value the same for those types of games.
tbeard1999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2018, 05:12 PM   #76
Desert Scribe
 
Desert Scribe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Austin TX
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

I just thought of something (apologies if someone mentioned it earlier): Isn't hold fire already present in OGRE/GEV in the form of the overrun rules?
__________________
My sci-fi/fantasy wargaming blog: Super Galactic Dreadnought
Desert Scribe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2018, 05:34 PM   #77
sir_pudding
Wielder of Smart Pants
 
sir_pudding's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Scribe View Post
I just thought of something (apologies if someone mentioned it earlier): Isn't hold fire already present in OGRE/GEV in the form of the overrun rules?
Yeah, I mentioned that upthread.
sir_pudding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2018, 06:37 PM   #78
Desert Scribe
 
Desert Scribe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Austin TX
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Yeah, I mentioned that upthread.
Sorry; I've been following the thread for some time, but I didn't want to go back and reread every post :D
__________________
My sci-fi/fantasy wargaming blog: Super Galactic Dreadnought
Desert Scribe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2018, 01:13 PM   #79
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Scribe View Post
I just thought of something (apologies if someone mentioned it earlier): Isn't hold fire already present in OGRE/GEV in the form of the overrun rules?
No it isn't. The overrun rules only apply to an overrun situation (i.e., a unit moves into the same hex as an enemy unit). The issues I identified earlier would not be addressed since there's no compulsion - or reason - for the attacker to initiate an overrun attack while using the tactics I described.

The overrun rules address a completely different problem - a weak unit artificially blocking a much stronger force. (I love the overrun rule, by the way. It's surprising how many tactical games lack such a mechanic. I pretty much ripped it off whole cloth for A Fistful of TOWs.)

Last edited by tbeard1999; 02-07-2018 at 11:43 AM.
tbeard1999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2018, 07:33 AM   #80
Tim Kauffman
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pennsylvania
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
How would OGREs work using Hold-Fire? Could they Hold-Fire some of their weapons or would they have to Hold-Fire all weapons to use this?
I am assuming they must Hold-Fire all weapons to KISS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
I would not recommend using hold fire in games using Ogres. I mentioned it before, but one of the key tactics to defeating cybertanks is to use GEVs in "slashing" attacks. It's the entire reason GEVs have split movement, to allow them to move in, attack, and make something of an escape. If Ogres can hold fire, then it allows them to decimate GEVs on their own terms.
Attacks are simultaneous from attacker and defender, thus the following situations can play out (basically):
OGRE Xes or Disables GEVs and GEVs miss OGRE.
OGRE Xes or Disables GEVs and GEVs X OGRE weapons and or treads.
GEVs X OGRE weapons and or treads and OGRE misses GEVs.
GEVs X OGRE weapons and or treads and OGRE Xes or Disables GEVs.
Of course there could be partial Xing and missing, but basically these are the situations that will occur with the simultaneous attacking of Hold-Fire.

This is also where the concern of balance issues is.

What about having the rule GEVs can only make their attacks AFTER the OGRE makes it's attacks on them and only if it misses them. (No Disable or X results occur). This takes a lot of the sting out of GEVs being too favored and powerful while still preserving the core concept. They can still attack, but only if they successfully weather the OGREs attacks first.

Optionally, you could keep the original rule of simultaneous attacks with full effect for both sides and have it only apply to OGREs with Descartes Packages. They were as OGRE MINIATURES states certainly harder to kill. This would reflect that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
I agree that Hold Fire *probably* shouldn’t be used in pure Ogre games. I want to playtest it though. I would use it in GEV games that involve Ogres, though.
Why not use Hold-Fire in pure OGRE games?
__________________
"So I stood my ground...my only hope to die as I had always lived-fighting" John Carter of Mars

Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 02-08-2018 at 07:38 AM.
Tim Kauffman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.