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Old 07-25-2013, 11:25 PM   #31
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Default Re: Underscoring the inhuman minds of Uplifts, AIs and Bioroids

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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
I'm not sure it's possible for a species to be intelligent and not have a genetically hardwired tendency towards seeing patterns, including where there are none. At least not a naturally evolved species. How do they get technology and science, without that tendency?
Of course, neither uplifts nor AIs are naturally evolved. In fact, if you consider that a trait that's particularly linked to technology and science, then it would make sense to consider how it might be different in uplifts, since those are specifically species that didn't develop technology and science.
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Old 07-26-2013, 04:58 PM   #32
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Default Re: Underscoring the inhuman minds of Uplifts, AIs and Bioroids

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Why would you need to see a human face in a cooked tortilla for that?
Because our superior pattern making engine got mixed up in our social development. There was selection pressure to be better at identify other people and to determine things about behavior from appearance. It's better to see 3 out of 1 faces than to fail to see that the big man is angry, armed and coming your way.
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Why evolve intelligence when you could instead evolve greater speed, strength, weapons etc?
Evolution is non-directed.
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Old 07-26-2013, 10:27 PM   #33
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Default Re: Underscoring the inhuman minds of Uplifts, AIs and Bioroids

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Evolution is non-directed.
Or so you believe it to be. Flyn might not share your belief.
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Old 07-26-2013, 11:13 PM   #34
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Default Re: Underscoring the inhuman minds of Uplifts, AIs and Bioroids

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Or so you believe it to be. Flyn might not share your belief.
Evolution, the scientific theory, is a model that describes a non-directed process. That model doesn't rely on belief anymore than Thermodymics or Newtonian Motion or Special Relativity do.
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Old 07-26-2013, 11:29 PM   #35
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Default Re: Underscoring the inhuman minds of Uplifts, AIs and Bioroids

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Evolution, the scientific theory, is a model that describes a non-directed process. That model doesn't rely on belief anymore than Thermodymics or Newtonian Motion or Special Relativity do.
You misunderstand me. Because it's not predictive, intelligence is an improbable thing to evolve. It has little "power" except far in the future. Of course there had to be some reason for our ancestors to develop it. But the animal kingdom still shows that getting stronger, faster, tougher, etc. usually works out better and far far more often.
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Old 07-26-2013, 11:33 PM   #36
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Default Re: Underscoring the inhuman minds of Uplifts, AIs and Bioroids

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Or so you believe it to be. Flyn might not share your belief.
No. He just mistook my every day metaphorical use of purpose as literal volition. I can't complain as far too many people actually believe natural processes have literal urges and minds. Still, I would've hoped my opinionated history would have made that form of anti-science not intentional.
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Old 07-27-2013, 12:06 AM   #37
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Default Re: Underscoring the inhuman minds of Uplifts, AIs and Bioroids

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No. He just mistook my every day metaphorical use of purpose as literal volition. I can't complain as far too many people actually believe natural processes have literal urges and minds. Still, I would've hoped my opinionated history would have made that form of anti-science not intentional.
I don't understand what you mean. Do you mean that people think 'Evolution' is some kind of a spirit or god? Or are you referring to some interpretation of Hegel's' ideas (which weren't about the evolution of species, but of consciousness through history)?
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Old 07-27-2013, 12:09 AM   #38
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Default Re: Underscoring the inhuman minds of Uplifts, AIs and Bioroids

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Evolution, the scientific theory, is a model that describes a non-directed process. That model doesn't rely on belief anymore than Thermodymics or Newtonian Motion or Special Relativity do.
Like all scientific ideas, it ultimately relies on certain base assumptions about reality and what is 'being.' The model constructed by a human thinker could appear to be internally consistent, and yet be deficient or false as an explanation of what actually is.

Mind you-- I'm not arguing that your beliefs are incorrect. I'm just recognizing that they exist.

As do mine. As do Flyn's.

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Old 07-27-2013, 12:41 AM   #39
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Default Re: Underscoring the inhuman minds of Uplifts, AIs and Bioroids

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You misunderstand me. Because it's not predictive, intelligence is an improbable thing to evolve.
It seems to be related to sensory ability, so some intelligence would seem to be likely with multicellular animals, just to make sense of the environment.
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It has little "power" except far in the future.
Like everything else, there are advantages to intermediate stages even if the current form started out as a side effect of some other trait.
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But the animal kingdom still shows that getting stronger, faster, tougher, etc. usually works out better and far far more often.
Barnacles. Neotony. Sometimes it works "backwards".

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I can't complain as far too many people actually believe natural processes have literal urges and minds. Still, I would've hoped my opinionated history would have made that form of anti-science not intentional.
The notion of "progress" in evolution is a pernicious one, that lots of otherwise intelligent people seem to fall into. It tends to be a fallacy that I am sensitive to, for whatever reason.

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Like all scientific ideas, it ultimately relies on certain base assumptions about reality and what is 'being.' The model constructed by a human thinker could appear to be internally consistent, and yet be deficient or false as an explanation of what actually is.
Whether it turns out to be correct or not, isn't relevant to whether I described the theory correctly or not. It doesn't need to be believed to be explained.
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Old 07-27-2013, 12:58 AM   #40
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Default Re: Underscoring the inhuman minds of Uplifts, AIs and Bioroids

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Whether it turns out to be correct or not, isn't relevant to whether I described the theory correctly or not. It doesn't need to be believed to be explained.
You described the theory, yes. Good job. I never disagreed with you that the theory of evolution as generally understood by scientists describes a process in nature, 'undirected' in much the same sense as various other processes in nature may be conceived of as being.
But you don't seem to get that it (like 'science' in general) rests on other ideas and beliefs. It fits into a certain worldview, or set of worldviews, and doesn't necessarily make sense without one first accepting certain beliefs about reality and how things work. In order for the theory to have developed in the first place, Darwin and previous generations of scientists and naturalists had to have accepted or developed certain ideas about reality. I'm trying to avoid jargon, here, but somehow I don't think I'm being clear enough.
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