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Old 10-23-2008, 09:37 AM   #1
IrishRover
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Default Interplanetary Infinite Worlds jumps...where's "here" ?

Looking over the "Infinite Worlds" setting, I noticed a subtle assumption..very necessary for playability, and consistant with various time and alternate worlds stories throughtou the genre. The Conveyors use the planet as their fixed "Here" despite the fact that Earth is in difeerent positions at different times. All well and good.

One Pyramid article included the assumption that this holds true in low Earth orbit...also good and gamable.

But...suppose the projector/conveyor is more distant? If on the moon, or another body with a large gravity well, it would make sence that this would still apply. Now, put the conveyor in an extreme Earth orbit, say twice as far out as the moon. Now what?

Or worse, on a low energy trajectory betwen Earth and Mars. What happens if IT makes a sub-quantum jump? Where is "Here?" The 2 planets aren't in the same relative positions at a different time..what's the anchor?

Is the sun enough of an anchor, or will these travelers find themselves in interstellar space, since the sun has moved over the centuries?

I'm contemplating the possibility of an interplanetary craft that's also a conveyor, so I need input on the ground rules of the science before I implement it.
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Old 10-23-2008, 10:44 AM   #2
Andrew Hackard
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Default Re: Interplanetary Infinite Worlds jumps...where's "here" ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishRover
I'm contemplating the possibility of an interplanetary craft that's also a conveyor, so I need input on the ground rules of the science before I implement it.
It's not science, it's superscience, so do whatever you want.
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Old 10-23-2008, 10:59 AM   #3
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: Interplanetary Infinite Worlds jumps...where's "here" ?

Like Andrew says, you can more or less make up any rules to it you want - the mechanics of the conveyors/projectors haven't been worked out in any greater detail than needed for the setting.
That said, I'd probably have a conveyor keep its relative position to the nearest significant gravity source when worldline-jumping in space, just for consistency, and because I really don't feel like bothering with a whole bunch of rigmarole of going to a specific empty point in space and performing a bunch of calculations in order to end up in Martian orbit in the destination timeline. I want to get into Martian orbit in the starting timeline, and end in Martian orbit at the destination.
If you want some technobabble to explain why it works that way, how about this: conveyors and projectors, in order to move between timelines, orient themselves on the quantum signature of the nearest large gravity source. Then they regress the quantum signature back to the desired divergence point, then follow the divergent signature back up to the local present in the destination timeline. Since it's the quantum signature of the large body that you're locked onto, you always arrive in the same relative position, even if the signature has moved relative to other signatures in the destination timeline.
I'd even allow someone to get fancy and try to lock onto a signature other than the nearest large body - I'd just make the Electronics Operation (Parachonics) roll to work the conveyor/projector be at -8. So, if you were really desperate to get off-planet, you could lock your conveyor onto the quantum signature of the Sun, and then jump, trusting in Earth's relative motion to carry it away from you in the destination. Hope you packed some vac suits...
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Old 10-23-2008, 11:44 AM   #4
IrishRover
 
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Default Re: Interplanetary Infinite Worlds jumps...where's "here" ?

I know it's not science, but superscience. I'm trying to get some ground rules in place, with some simple technobable, BEFORE the Saint Brendan leaves the surface of Earth. Both the "truth" and possible incorrect theories that may be locked onto.
I like the idea of locking onto the quantum sign of a different gravity source, with penalties...how much of a penalty depending on how massive and how far away. Of course, if that gravity source isn't there at the other end, all bets are off.
More ideas would be most welcome...Thanks!
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Old 10-23-2008, 11:48 AM   #5
blacksmith
 
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Default Re: Interplanetary Infinite Worlds jumps...where's "here" ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishRover
Looking over the "Infinite Worlds" setting, I noticed a subtle assumption..very necessary for playability, and consistant with various time and alternate worlds stories throughtou the genre. The Conveyors use the planet as their fixed "Here" despite the fact that Earth is in difeerent positions at different times. All well and good.

One Pyramid article included the assumption that this holds true in low Earth orbit...also good and gamable.

But...suppose the projector/conveyor is more distant? If on the moon, or another body with a large gravity well, it would make sence that this would still apply. Now, put the conveyor in an extreme Earth orbit, say twice as far out as the moon. Now what?

Or worse, on a low energy trajectory betwen Earth and Mars. What happens if IT makes a sub-quantum jump? Where is "Here?" The 2 planets aren't in the same relative positions at a different time..what's the anchor?

Is the sun enough of an anchor, or will these travelers find themselves in interstellar space, since the sun has moved over the centuries?

I'm contemplating the possibility of an interplanetary craft that's also a conveyor, so I need input on the ground rules of the science before I implement it.
Cannonicaly it becomes uncertain as intensive calculations need to be done for each specific point in space. You don't have the coordinates to jump to and jump where ever you are, you have coordiantes to jump from times square in one dimension to times square in a different dimension.

That is an advantage centrum has, they can use the same jump calculation over a much larger area.
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Old 10-23-2008, 11:59 AM   #6
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Default Re: Interplanetary Infinite Worlds jumps...where's "here" ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen
If you want some technobabble to explain why it works that way, how about this: conveyors and projectors, in order to move between timelines, orient themselves on the quantum signature of the nearest large gravity source. Then they regress the quantum signature back to the desired divergence point, then follow the divergent signature back up to the local present in the destination timeline. Since it's the quantum signature of the large body that you're locked onto, you always arrive in the same relative position, even if the signature has moved relative to other signatures in the destination timeline.
An interesting variation would be to allow this at a certain difficulty operation level (-4 for solar system planets, -8 for interspace), but make it simpler for the conveyor to find and travel to timelines that diverge specifically on the celestial body onto which you're locked. Say, from Mars you could go to terraformed Mars, red-forests Mars, full-of-canals Mars, little green martians' Mars, Barsoom Mars...

EDIT: and maybe even find out that our deserted, cold Mars is a hellish exception among hundreds of lush Mars-echos inhibited by advanced tripod conquerors in different stages of their history, and their billions of human slaves...

Last edited by Onuryn; 10-23-2008 at 12:10 PM. Reason: added possibilities
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Old 10-23-2008, 01:52 PM   #7
IrishRover
 
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Default Re: Interplanetary Infinite Worlds jumps...where's "here" ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksmith
Cannonicaly it becomes uncertain as intensive calculations need to be done for each specific point in space. You don't have the coordinates to jump to and jump where ever you are, you have coordiantes to jump from times square in one dimension to times square in a different dimension.

That is an advantage centrum has, they can use the same jump calculation over a much larger area.
This, I know...but the question is, what happens when the point in space is uncertain. For example, a point on earth is pretty certain...the latitude and longitude of Times Square.

But a point in solar orbit is less certain...do you arive in the same spot relative to Earth, even if it's in a different part of its orbit? Or at the same point relative to the sun...which could be much closer or more distant from Earth. Or, even worse, do you arive at the same place relative to the galaxy, which could be in interstellar space if the sun's moved enough.
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Old 10-23-2008, 05:16 PM   #8
William
 
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Default Re: Interplanetary Infinite Worlds jumps...where's "here" ?

Try this for pseudotechnobabble:

The divergence point between any two timelines isn't just a point in time, it's a point in space-time -- a place and time where some event first resolved differently between the conveyor's current and target timelines. In the conveyor's current reference frame in its starting timeline, there is a historical path from that event to the conveyor. It will arrive in the target timeline at the endpoint of a similar path, the image path being the one with the least possible distortion; usually, in Earthlike timelines, so near to the same apparent spatial point relative to the Earth's gravity well as to be nigh indistiguishable.

The difference is significant mainly when dealing with timelines where the time flow rate is significantly different, or where space has different definition (such as the moon running around the Earth in a crystal sphere, or the plane bending under the weight of too much poetry).
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Old 10-23-2008, 05:54 PM   #9
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Interplanetary Infinite Worlds jumps...where's "here" ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishRover

Or worse, on a low energy trajectory betwen Earth and Mars. What happens if IT makes a sub-quantum jump? Where is "Here?" The 2 planets aren't in the same relative positions at a different time..what's the anchor?

Is the sun enough of an anchor, or will these travelers find themselves in interstellar space, since the sun has moved over the centuries?
It's safe to assume the travellers won't generally find themselves in interstellar space because that would be boring.
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Old 10-23-2008, 07:43 PM   #10
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Default Re: Interplanetary Infinite Worlds jumps...where's "here" ?

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2
It's safe to assume the travellers won't generally find themselves in interstellar space because that would be boring.
That depends - is the conveyor insulated and airtight? Can it make another jump before the air runs out or they all freeze to death? And without a gravitational reference point will they make it someplace they can survive?

Interstellar space can be very interesting - in the Chinese curse sense.
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