Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by zot

How would that work, since demons don't have any ranged attacks and the wizard could run away?

Would the demon get to teleport out of the pentagram but only attack the wizard and have to be careful not to accidentally break anything or hurt anyone else?

I really don't think a demon needs to physically touch the wizard to destroy them (although most would probably prefer a more 'hands on' approach if they have the option). They do have the ability to alter reality, after all.

TBH, I think the implied mental invitation would provide sufficient access to the wizard which I think is what warhorse11h is getting at.

[oldwolf]

Demon summonings should be roleplayed.

Well I remember a player, safely in a pentagram, summoning a demon.

I had the demon appear, wearing a spell of invisibility, just outside the pentagram. The demon then tiptoed over to the door of the room and knocked, while calling out "I am here o master, open the door that I may enter and serve thee."

Yes, the player character walked over to open the door.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by oldwolf

Demon summonings should be roleplayed.

Well I remember a player, safely in a pentagram, summoning a demon.

I had the demon appear, wearing a spell of invisibility, just outside the pentagram. The demon then tiptoed over to the door of the room and knocked, while calling out "I am here o master, open the door that I may enter and serve thee."

Yes, the player character walked over to open the door.

Now that sounds like an IQ challenge to me.

[zot]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

I really don't think a demon needs to physically touch the wizard to destroy them (although most would probably prefer a more 'hands on' approach if they have the option). They do have the ability to alter reality, after all.

TBH, I think the implied mental invitation would provide sufficient access to the wizard which I think is what warhorse11h is getting at.

Sure, this could be a house rule but there's nothing in the current rules to imply that sort of capability. The rules don't allow for demons to use their own wishes or any magical powers at all, for that matter, other than teleport.

I've always been a little disappointed at how relatively powerless demons are when it seems like they should have infinite variety and all kinds of weird powers.

[oldwolf]

Another thought, since it is a contest of wills, one might consider that it is a mental contest of the wizard trying to compel the demon to do his bidding and vice versa. If the demon wins, the wizard is forced to break the pentagram. The demon can then politely request the wizards autograph or rip his head off as he sees fit.

[warhorse11h]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

I really don't think a demon needs to physically touch the wizard to destroy them (although most would probably prefer a more 'hands on' approach if they have the option). They do have the ability to alter reality, after all.

TBH, I think the implied mental invitation would provide sufficient access to the wizard which I think is what warhorse11h is getting at.

Thanks, Tippets TX, that is what I was getting at, but a different thought has struck. ITL LE pg 80 says that a demon may not enter or leave a pentagram or attack across the border of a pentagram. But that leaves what seems to be a valid question. Does a teleporting being pass through barriers or simply disappear from one place and reappear in another? If so, can the demon escape to attack the wizard by teleporting out of the pentagram. Also, a pentagram cannot stop a physical attack from a non-magical creature. So, if the demon materializes outside of the pentagram and picks up the party's barbarian and throws him at the wizard standing in the middle of the pentagram, does the barbarian hit the wizard and knock him out of the pentagram, or does he stop when he hits the pentagram?

[TippetsTX]

You had me at "picks up the party's barbarian". ;)

[Steve Plambeck]

I'm thinking the wizard must not like his friends very much if he summons the demon outside the pentagram without inviting those friends to step inside with him first.

"Hey guys, you stand over there while I get inside this circle here -- now wait 'til you see what I'm bringing you!"

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by warhorse11h

ITL LE pg 80 says that a demon may not enter or leave a pentagram or attack across the border of a pentagram. But that leaves what seems to be a valid question. Does a teleporting being pass through barriers or simply disappear from one place and reappear in another? If so, can the demon escape to attack the wizard by teleporting out of the pentagram.

No. Teleporting is the standard way demons move. So there would be no reason for the rules to mention wizards using pentagrams when summoning demons if they were near-zero obstacle to them. Therefore, clearly pentagrams block teleportation across them.

Originally Posted by warhorse11h

Also, a pentagram cannot stop a physical attack from a non-magical creature. So, if the demon materializes outside of the pentagram and picks up the party's barbarian and throws him at the wizard standing in the middle of the pentagram, does the barbarian hit the wizard and knock him out of the pentagram, or does he stop when he hits the pentagram?

Yes. That's why the standard approach mentioned is to summon a demon inside a pentagram. Of course, one might also assume a pentagram blocks a wizard from summoning across it, unless the wizard himself is inside the pentagram too. If it also blocked the contest of wills, and especially if the contest of will involved having to be adjacent to the demon, that would help a bit, but still a 4d attack is vastly more survivable (especially with the Legacy dying rules) than the original result of being immediately killed.

[zot]

Originally Posted by warhorse11h

Thanks, Tippets TX, that is what I was getting at, but a different thought has struck. ITL LE pg 80 says that a demon may not enter or leave a pentagram or attack across the border of a pentagram. But that leaves what seems to be a valid question. Does a teleporting being pass through barriers or simply disappear from one place and reappear in another? If so, can the demon escape to attack the wizard by teleporting out of the pentagram. Also, a pentagram cannot stop a physical attack from a non-magical creature. So, if the demon materializes outside of the pentagram and picks up the party's barbarian and throws him at the wizard standing in the middle of the pentagram, does the barbarian hit the wizard and knock him out of the pentagram, or does he stop when he hits the pentagram?

For teleporting, I think the key point in the rules is that a demon cannot leave a pentagram. Doesn't matter how it tries to do it.

The rules do say a demon can use weapons so if there were any ranged weapons (like rocks), it could use them to attack across the pentagram since they're nonmagical.