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Old 07-05-2019, 02:27 AM   #1
Shoug
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default TFT + Fate Starting Point

Player characters begin with Knowledge Points equal to their IQ and gain one whenever they raise their IQ. These may be spent on Spells and Talents in the usual “TFT” way, but they may also be spent on increasing any Fate Skill modifier by +1 up to your IQ-8. The Fate Skills are rolled for in the usual “Fate” way, and start at -1 (this means it takes 1 point to get to +0!). You should probably revise the Skills list that you will be using for your game (in order to remove such skills as Fight, Shoot, and Physique). The Skills list that I’ll be using in my games is as follows:
  • Burglary
  • Crafts
  • Deceive
  • Empathy
  • Provoke
  • Will
  • Rapport
  • Drive
  • Investigate
  • Lore
  • Notice
  • Stealth
Talents are to be invoked as Fate Aspects, in lieu of your Main Concept (you may still have a Trouble and may still do the Phase Trio if you desire). A Talent's normal text is only to be used if it pertains to combat or resources. Otherwise, ignore them, and use Fate instead. These specifications detail the only point of contact between Fate and TFT. Outside of these rulings, Fate and TFT don't step on each other's toes. They are to be played as normal, albeit simultaneously.

Last edited by Shoug; 07-05-2019 at 02:38 AM.
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Old 07-05-2019, 10:53 AM   #2
Scintillant
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Default Re: TFT + Fate Starting Point

I read this post thinking I might learn some interesting house rules. However, I don't know the Fate system at all so it's completely opaque to me.
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Old 07-05-2019, 11:04 AM   #3
Shoug
 
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Default Re: TFT + Fate Starting Point

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Originally Posted by Scintillant View Post
I read this post thinking I might learn some interesting house rules. However, I don't know the Fate system at all so it's completely opaque to me.
Yeah, I'm aware of the gambit I made. However, everybody I've talked to on these forums about a TFT/Fate hybrid has been familiar with system enough to agree that it would be a great idea. So I decided that I would assume a high degree of familiarity in both Fate and TFT for the purposes of this document, not only for that reason but because Fate is a fully fledged RPG in it's own right and it would be overwhelming to try to summarize the whole thing just for this post. The complete rules can be found here. That link will bring you to the basics page, where you can get a quick enough primer to make sense of this adaptation.
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Old 07-05-2019, 02:56 PM   #4
MikMod
 
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Default Re: TFT + Fate Starting Point

Ok - so it's basically running both systems?

Can I ask:

1) How do you reconcile stats with skills like Physique and Acrobatics? They're like ST and DX kinda, I imagine? Do levels of skill there translate into an ST and DX stat somehow? Or the other way around?

2) How do you take damage? I really like the Consequences aspect (*ahem*) of Fate regarding damages - its much more interesting than just taking some numerical damage. Do you think you will use both somehow or settle on keeping one and losing the other?

3) What are you aiming at here with the word 'resources'?:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoug View Post
A Talent's normal text is only to be used if it pertains to combat or resources.
I've also had some thoughts on joining the two systems, but I think my approach is way different! :)

Last edited by MikMod; 07-05-2019 at 03:04 PM. Reason: add another point
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Old 07-05-2019, 02:58 PM   #5
MikMod
 
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Default Re: TFT + Fate Starting Point

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Originally Posted by Scintillant View Post
I read this post thinking I might learn some interesting house rules. However, I don't know the Fate system at all so it's completely opaque to me.
Fate looks to me to be most excellent - and it is free. I just found out about it recently myself. Take a look - you may find a very interesting system of 'house rules'...
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Old 07-05-2019, 10:13 PM   #6
Shoug
 
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Default Re: TFT + Fate Starting Point

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikMod View Post
Ok - so it's basically running both systems?

Can I ask:

1) How do you reconcile stats with skills like Physique and Acrobatics? They're like ST and DX kinda, I imagine? Do levels of skill there translate into an ST and DX stat somehow? Or the other way around?

2) How do you take damage? I really like the Consequences aspect (*ahem*) of Fate regarding damages - its much more interesting than just taking some numerical damage. Do you think you will use both somehow or settle on keeping one and losing the other?

3) What are you aiming at here with the word 'resources'?:



I've also had some thoughts on joining the two systems, but I think my approach is way different! :)
I did a lot of thinking about ways of combining each of the dice mechanics of the games, thinking that such a thing would be necessary for them to be combined. That was kind of a fundamentally flawed approach, and I was never be able to iterate it in such a way that I could not break it. Then I realized that each system already works on it's own, and that they don't really do much that the other does. They simply don't get in the way of each other, so the best answer is to simply play them simultaneously.

1) I recommend not using Athletics or Physique, because they're already modeled by ST in TFT. The key here is to look at what TFT really models, and not include any Skills which model those things. I made some exceptions in the case of skills like Notice and Investigation, because I feel like these things make sense to put into the hands of archetypally shrewd character types. Another problem with skills like Physique and Athletics is that getting them is tied to IQ, which produces an illogical reality.

2) This is a good question with a similar answer as my first answer. The way damage works in Fate can be abstractly explained as, "Each character has 1 HP. Whenever they would take damage, they can negate that damage by filling in Stress Boxes or accepting Consequences equaling the damage in total numerical value. If you lose your 1 HP, you will be 'Taken Out.'" The thing is, ST already models physical stress. However, the Consequences mechanic can still be used if you prefer low-lethality games (like me). The way they would work with TFT would be as one-time-use armor that only important characters have. You would be allowed to, at any time, take one of your Consequences in order to gain that much armor until the end of the turn, basically. This can be used in response to an enemy's damage roll. The point is, instead of passing out or dying, a character can make their character more complex in order to narrowly survive.

3) "Resources" is referring to any sort of resource that is tracked in OSR type games and not tracked in narrativist type games (like Fate). I'm talking about money and time, about risk. Talents such as Mathematics, Business Sense, and Woodsman. If the Talent RAW would help you in combat or help you mitigate risks to your resources, then you should use the text of that talent.

I'm interested to hear about your ideas for a Fate/TFT hybrid? Would you do anything differently?

Last edited by Shoug; 07-06-2019 at 03:24 AM.
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Old 07-05-2019, 11:44 PM   #7
JLV
 
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Default Re: TFT + Fate Starting Point

Fundamentally my epiphany was much like Shoug's -- that FATE allows me to model the non-combat aspects of adventuring (not including the purely physical skills) in a much more effective and intuitively understandable way than the TFT roll vs IQ system does. TFT does combat and most physical activities amazingly well (and intuitively too, I might add), but the non-physical things; dealing with NPCs, negotiating, investigating, etc., never really played as effectively as the physical things did in TFT -- they always seemed too...structured...to me.

On the other hand, FATE never handled the physical things as well, IMHO, as TFT easily does. Initially, I wanted to "merge" the systems too, but then, like Shoug, I realized that I really didn't need to do that at all. Why does one system have to model everything (and be considered a failure if it doesn't manage to do everything perfectly)? Instead, let each system manage the things it DOES do well, and don't worry about the interface so much -- your human users will do that translation for you, simply by roleplaying the actual events. All that FATE and TFT are is systems which mechanically define how many dice you roll to resolve actions, and there isn't a single reason in the world why the mechanics for two completely different types of events have to be resolved using the same mechanism.

I understand this won't be everyone's cup of tea, and some will feel it's flat out heresy; but if we look at what's being simulated in the two games, I think you'll have to agree that each system simulates one part of it better than the other does, and if we accept that as true, then all else follows...
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Old 07-06-2019, 03:19 AM   #8
Shoug
 
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Default Re: TFT + Fate Starting Point

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLV View Post
Fundamentally my epiphany was much like Shoug's -- that FATE allows me to model the non-combat aspects of adventuring (not including the purely physical skills) in a much more effective and intuitively understandable way than the TFT roll vs IQ system does. TFT does combat and most physical activities amazingly well (and intuitively too, I might add), but the non-physical things; dealing with NPCs, negotiating, investigating, etc., never really played as effectively as the physical things did in TFT -- they always seemed too...structured...to me.

On the other hand, FATE never handled the physical things as well, IMHO, as TFT easily does. Initially, I wanted to "merge" the systems too, but then, like Shoug, I realized that I really didn't need to do that at all. Why does one system have to model everything (and be considered a failure if it doesn't manage to do everything perfectly)? Instead, let each system manage the things it DOES do well, and don't worry about the interface so much -- your human users will do that translation for you, simply by roleplaying the actual events. All that FATE and TFT are is systems which mechanically define how many dice you roll to resolve actions, and there isn't a single reason in the world why the mechanics for two completely different types of events have to be resolved using the same mechanism.

I understand this won't be everyone's cup of tea, and some will feel it's flat out heresy; but if we look at what's being simulated in the two games, I think you'll have to agree that each system simulates one part of it better than the other does, and if we accept that as true, then all else follows...
I agree with this on the most part, but the point of contact that I made is the only one I thought would be necessary. The problem is, IQ in TFT is meant to balance Heroes along the Warrior-Rogue spectrum: Rogues sacrifice combat ability to gain more non-combat ability. So, in order to preserve that, I had to come up for a way that at least IQ could interface with the mechanics of Fate. That's why I came up with what I came up with.
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Old 07-06-2019, 01:20 PM   #9
JLV
 
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Default Re: TFT + Fate Starting Point

I guess for me, the IQ part plays out in the magic system and in determining what "skills" you can learn and master, more than anything else. In effect, I think I'd use IQ to determine WHAT you know, but the FATE system to determine HOW you apply what you know (except for both magical and physical combat, of course). That's an oversimplification, but gets near to the heart of it. The disadvantage to doing it my way is that you are introducing another mechanism between IQ and actual results. The advantage of doing it my way is that you get more nuanced results. But ANY system that allows for those more nuanced results is a plus in my book. So yes, I understand why you did what you did there, Shoug. And don't disagree with it at all.

Last edited by JLV; 07-06-2019 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 07-06-2019, 01:50 PM   #10
Shoug
 
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Default Re: TFT + Fate Starting Point

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Originally Posted by JLV View Post
I guess for me, the IQ part plays out in the magic system and in determining what "skills" you can learn and master, more than anything else. In effect, I think I'd use IQ to determine WHAT you know, but the FATE system to determine HOW you apply what you know (except for both magical and physical combat, of course). That's an oversimplification, but gets near to the heart of it. The disadvantage to doing it my way is that you are introducing another mechanism between IQ and actual results. The advantage of doing it my way is that you get more nuanced results. But ANY system that allows for those more nuanced results is a plus in my book. So yes, I understand why you did what you did there, Shoug. And don't disagree with it at all.
Well another way it could be done is to simply use Fate Accelerated instead of Core. In Fate Accelerated, you have Approaches instead of Skills. Approaches modify your rolls in much the same way that Skills do, but instead of modifying your roll when it qualifies as being a Crafts action or a Provoke action, you modify your roll when it qualifies as a Clever action or a Forceful action. Theses are the approaches in the book.
Careful: A Careful action is when you pay close attention to detail and take your time to do the job right. Lining up a long-range arrow shot. Attentively standing watch. Disarming a bank’s alarm system.

Clever: A Clever action requires that you think fast, solve problems, or account for complex variables. Finding the weakness in an enemy swordsman’s style. Finding the weak point in a fortress wall. Fixing a computer.

Flashy: A Flashy action draws attention to you; it’s full of style and panache. Delivering an inspiring speech to your army. Embarrassing your opponent in a duel. Producing a magical fireworks display.

Forceful: A Forceful action isn’t subtle—it’s brute strength. Wrestling a bear. Staring down a thug. Casting a big, powerful magic spell.

Quick: A Quick action requires that you move quickly and with dexterity. Dodging an arrow. Getting in the first punch. Disarming a bomb as it ticks 3… 2… 1…

Sneaky: A Sneaky action is done with an emphasis on misdirection, stealth, or deceit. Talking your way out of getting arrested. Picking a pocket. Feinting in a sword fight.
The purpose of these is to help define your character by how they do things rather than by what they do. If you were using approaches instead of skills, I'd say there'd be no important reason for you to detail any point of contact between the two systems at all. Fate Accelerated and TFT could really be played entirely simultaneously.
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