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Old 11-06-2015, 10:01 PM   #21
Angle
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Default Re: High TL 9 vs TL2+RPM

When I use magic dependent societies, I like to use the alternate TL advancement rules. so for example, if you have a group of people that only use mundane technologies up to TL 2, but use boatloads of magic in order to
*Support a post scarcity society
*Cure any and all diseases
*Teleport intergalactic distances
*etc, etc, etc.

Then they're more or less TL 12. Thus, they come in at TL 2 +10.

As for the war, it would depend largely on how "Organizationally Advanced" the magic people are. If they're basically organized into tribes that can't support much in the way of population & specialization (there aren't many of them & more or less everyone has to spend a bunch of time gathering they're own food) then they're probably screwed. Alternatively, if they organize into cities of millions and support a diverse class of specialists, they'd have much more of a chance. Also how centralized are they? If every tribe is independent they probably won't even be able to put up any resistance. The invaders will be able to just chew through them one at a time, even occasionally allying with a rival tribe if necessary.

You should probably consult the records of colonial Africa and India in order to get an idea of how this will probably go. Just give the defenders better capabilities.
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Old 11-06-2015, 11:16 PM   #22
starslayer
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Default Re: High TL 9 vs TL2+RPM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angle View Post
When I use magic dependent societies, I like to use the alternate TL advancement rules. so for example, if you have a group of people that only use mundane technologies up to TL 2, but use boatloads of magic in order to
*Support a post scarcity society
*Cure any and all diseases
*Teleport intergalactic distances
*etc, etc, etc.

Then they're more or less TL 12. Thus, they come in at TL 2 +10.

As for the war, it would depend largely on how "Organizationally Advanced" the magic people are. If they're basically organized into tribes that can't support much in the way of population & specialization (there aren't many of them & more or less everyone has to spend a bunch of time gathering they're own food) then they're probably screwed. Alternatively, if they organize into cities of millions and support a diverse class of specialists, they'd have much more of a chance. Also how centralized are they? If every tribe is independent they probably won't even be able to put up any resistance. The invaders will be able to just chew through them one at a time, even occasionally allying with a rival tribe if necessary.

You should probably consult the records of colonial Africa and India in order to get an idea of how this will probably go. Just give the defenders better capabilities.
Except that as posted the mage colony is societally advanced enough to have achieved interplanetary travel and colonization- they (or at least those trained in interstellar travel) understand the concepts of interstellar distance, and while ships that can travel that might be confusing it won't be a completely incomprehensible problem (whereas magic abilities will be incomprehensible to the invaders); which means their mages are able to access enough energy to span interplanetary distances and terraform worlds- I imagine this being some sort of gruesome sacrificial magic (so as not to make the mage world too utopian), and as a result their inter-tribe conflicts are particularly brutal- IE- the point of conflict is not to displace your enemy from their land, but to capture their people to fuel your own mages making new land available- Long term this means that the various tribes REALLY don't like one another and are very fragmented, but with no magical defenders an attacker, even one at interplanetary distances, is pretty much screwed. Most of the benifit of their high technology will never come into play- they will be struck down by destroy luck and control mind effects (if no one comes to their aid).


I have further problem with your proposed conquest though:
Somehow the invaders have enough technology on hand to subjugate MULTIPLE worlds, capture and exterminate ALL the mages (except perhaps a sole traitor tribe), figure out how magic works and develop countermeasures and establish themselves as the ruling body across an entire planetary system- but they fear AI, aren't prone to research, are hidebound, and don't have the tech to even keep their ships in operational order?

Once again, this is surmountable, but it involves making the invaders evil (and I mean that in the most genuine sense of the word- in that they are putting their own petty belief system above the rights and lives of an entire indigenous people; full on space Nazis ).
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Old 11-06-2015, 11:28 PM   #23
Angle
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Default Re: High TL 9 vs TL2+RPM

I think it was implied that the mage people had regressed from their space-crossing world-terraforming days. How that happened, I have no idea. Maybe all of that took place under the rule of one king taking advantage of a super high magic astrological event, and when that ended his empire collapsed?

As for magic being used to hold the invaders off, remember that they need to raise the energy to target the invaders, which is pretty expensive. With low populations, mass sacrifices can only get you so far, especially as you can only sacrifice one person per ritual by RAW. And even more so when you consider the fact that your people probably aren't willing to make that many sacrifices.
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Old 11-07-2015, 07:11 AM   #24
SRoach
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Default Re: High TL 9 vs TL2+RPM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
That may be a better scaling rate, I have to admit. Thanks for sharing.



The word 'generation ship' is being throw around: I'm not so sure that its an applicable term. Generation ships are generally self sustaining, but the description of these ships matches a long range colony ship, not a generation ship. They didn't have the resources to send only their self-sustaining elements, and probably can't keep up their full tech base.


How about putting the ship on autopilot? Put the well-dwelling colonists into hibernation, and thaw them out on approach. Now, you have colonists who remember living on a planet and want to live on another one, and because the autopilot can't make such complex executive decisions, don't know about the "natives" until they're already on approach.

Take a page from Honor Harrington. Maybe the TL9 ones are on a slowship, and they were beaten to their dutifully registered destination by claim-jumpers, who have now managed to get three or four generations in on "their" planet, or even in the ground on "their" planet, if you want to make the slowship journey long enough. Possibly, they were given a ride to a new world, again per HH, and the Graysons, or the ST:TNG episode, "Up The Long Ladder", by smugglers, to a place where they could get away from Demon Technology, (the magic was an unexpected bonus.)

Naturally, the squatters are not going to be welcoming to these long-heralded new arrivals, and will want to take them out of the sky before they can land with their Demon Supertech.
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Old 11-07-2015, 04:05 PM   #25
scc
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default Re: High TL 9 vs TL2+RPM

I sort of wondering why the natives are resisting, especially with how much people are suggesting the use of human sacrifices to stop the invaders
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Old 11-07-2015, 05:58 PM   #26
starslayer
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Default Re: High TL 9 vs TL2+RPM

Quote:
Originally Posted by scc View Post
I sort of wondering why the natives are resisting, especially with how much people are suggesting the use of human sacrifices to stop the invaders
Because they are alien invaders from the stars who basically encompass everything that the shaman and tribal leaders say they are protecting them from with that sacrifice?

Also- who are you talking about when you say 'the natives', its a TL2 world, so there is a strong ruling class (of which magic using shamans/priests are likely an important part), for the rank and file serfs being sacrificed is something that gets done; even if they don't like it they don't know anything else.

If they even know about the the threat from the stars, they will only know what the shamans and leaders tell them, which will not be flattering.
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Old 11-07-2015, 07:24 PM   #27
dcarson
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Default Re: High TL 9 vs TL2+RPM

One way to make interplanetary travel uncommon is that gates are fixed relative to each other. So a gate to a planet doesn't work you need to use a teleport. This lets you avoid the semipermanent connection. Each trip is a major bit of magic.
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Old 11-09-2015, 12:32 PM   #28
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: High TL 9 vs TL2+RPM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfinlay View Post
My feeling was always that large scale sacrifice was hard. That's because iirc, anyone who doesn't fully have the interests of the ritual at heart screws it up pretty badly and sacrifice hurts. Trying to force people into giving sacrifice just won't work and any attempt to gather large groups to sacrifice without carefully vetting them leads to people ****ing up the ritual.
As far as I can find, RPM has no rules for nearby individuals actively screwing up a ritual - the closest thing is that the GM can have each point of energy given by a semi-willing participant (as in "Willingly sacrifice HP/FP for this spell or we'll get the power by shoving this dagger through your daughter's heart") come with a Quirk. Note I suggested using a group of 1,000 elite soldiers with High Pain Tolerance, Fit, and appropriate Sense of Duty - it would presumably be a volunteer legion made up of some of the better soldiers you have. I'd expect a large TL2 polity to be able to manage that (I've little doubt Rome could have pulled it off).
Of course, nothing says that's the way it has to work in your setting, or that leadership had the foresight to set up such a legion.
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Old 11-09-2015, 02:32 PM   #29
Nereidalbel
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Ellicott City, MD
Default Re: High TL 9 vs TL2+RPM

Are we dead set on the locals being human? If not, the Shin'hare would be quite hard to conquer, regardless of the tech difference.
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Old 11-09-2015, 03:06 PM   #30
fredtheobviouspseudonym
 
Join Date: May 2007
Default Polite disagreement

Quote:
Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
One of the major things you need to address if your not going for a scenario like my own (IE- their reasons for needing a planet are entirely self-imposed) is why they are bothering with a populated system. . . why bother making landfall ever again? Genetic engineering can get rid of those pesky legs and replace them with another set of useful arms, beef up bone structures, and restore the damages from the rigors of space travel (which they'd need to do to have generational ships anyway); and asteroids would be a better source of raw materials than a planet.
I'd think the reason is more mental/emotional/instinctual than physical. The human mind is the outcome of some half-million years of evolution -- and creates the desire to live dirtside, to breathe free air, and to feel gravity. We can change the bone/muscle structure -- changing the structure not only of the brain but the mind will be, I would argue, far more difficult.

In short, would you want to live forever in a glorified can in space looking at a perpetual night -- or on a sunny hillside looking down at flowing water?

The latter might be worth killing for.

Quote:
A planet(s) that has life would actually be a detriment to colonization, because now there are factors that you aren't prepared for (IE that that life is likely incompatible with your own, and even if compatible you are not going to have resistance for the local diseases, which resources and time are going to have to be spent immunizing the colonists against). It's far easier to colonize the vastness of space and extract your required materials from abundant asteroids then deal with silly (and expensive to escape) gravity wells.
No reason you can't have both. No shortage of precedents in human history for people destroying other cultures for what would seem a minor advantage. Ask the Arawak Indians.

Quote:
. . . If you can build generational ships and are late TL9 you can do just fine (and arguably do better) with nothing more than raw materials, which will be easier to access from completely unpopulated asteroids. If they don't have the technology for extraction from asteroids, then they don't have the technology for extraction on planets- if they don't have the space (IE all the extraction tech is in the storage bays) then they could easier build a dome on an asteroid to run the technology then try to safely get it planet-side and set up there. If they don't have the tech to build some domes to start extraction- how were they going to do it on what were presumably hostile planets without atmosphere and life? Or even better how ARE they going to do it for planets that likely have INCOMPATIBLE atmosphere and life.
Just the opposite.

The high tech invaders know that somehow the indigenous peoples have an incomprehensible ability to move across space without high tech. Given that many beings are territorial leaders of the intruders would wonder, really wonder, if these locals will be forever happy letting colonizers use all the resources of the outer solar system. Maybe the locals will see the asteroids as their own birthright. When will the locals say "Enough!" and act to throw the intruders out -- or exterminate them?

Sure, at tech 2 they can't do it now -- but what about a thousand years from now?

One of the best ways to jolt a low-tech society into frantic efforts to advance is the presence of a higher tech exploiter. (See Japan, c. 1868.) If the original inhabitants of the system outnumber you do you as the high-tech intruder want to wait a few centuries then fight outnumbered against folk with only a slightly lower tech level? There are precedents for "pre-emptive wars."

These might well be reasons for deciding on violence.
Quote:

Basically for advanced societies- once you can get off planet long term, there's not too many reasons (at least non self-imposed reasons) to NEED to go back, and you'd have to be downright evil to put those self-imposed reasons above the value of an indigenous also space faring society.
No shortage of historical examples of choosing evil as a policy in Earth's history.
Quote:

When I mention experimental technology breaking down- I literally mean experimental technology that is not needed in space (IE maintaining actual farms in a traditional sense rather than say, solar grown seaweed farms that then get broken down in to requisite materials and 3d printed into a variety of dishes); it is pretty conceivable that right now in TL8 we could (if cost were no issue) put a permanent self-sufficient colony on the moon or mars (it would be risky because we have not experimented with it, but a generational ship HAS experimented with it, and perfected it, by nature of being a generational ship).
Even the largest fleet of generational ships might have a hard time maintaining itself indefinitely. Let's take a TL-8 example. Let's assume that a USN carrier task force is somehow magically transported to an alternate, unpopulated Earth. Even given an unlimited supply of raw materials, and the very high quality of USN engineers and sailor brainpower, could it sustain itself? Remember that this would entail producing microchips, high tech metallurgy (turbine blades and composite materials) etc. Could it reproduce itself without the backing of a high-population, high-tech nation? My guess is that no matter the size of a generation fleet eventually they'll have to land and recreate a civilization -- or die from eventually running out of spare parts.
Quote:

Again without selfish, and downright evil, reasons motivating them, it would seem strange to me that the majority of those on the generational ships even WANT to make planetfall for any reason more then raw exploration (which would encourage interaction rather than conquest); while I am sure that most people on the ships would want more space, and their may be real reasons why they want to get closer to another sun (more solar power so that they can take reactors offline- that can be achieved by space stations and asteroid/moon colonies.

So I think you need to spend some time really pondering the 'why bother with the inhabited worlds, and why not just view the habited world as a 'pit stop', or why not just colonize the planetoids that the mage society won't touch (due to toxic or no atmosphere)
See above.

Remember that the GM doesn't have to have the most rational choices made by the space fleet commanders, nor the best -- only possible ones. Human folly is always credible. See Tuchman's "The Guns of August" for an example, or her later "The March of Folly."

Never underestimate the power of human beings to make the wrong choices.
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