[IW] Welsh America

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by simonmark6

The Welsh have a tendency to factionalise as soon as they possibly can on any given topic and endeavour[...]
Thus, it's highly unlikely that the Welsh would form any sort of strong empire or hegemony.

This strikes as more of a cultural accident of the Welsh situation in Europe, rather than some sort of law of nature. Given the starting conditions of the Welsh settlers all being from a single initial population, united under a single leader, I'd say an empire, or at least a united nation of some sort, is perfectly plausible. Not automatic, of course, but if you want the Welsh Empire Of The Chesepeake, I say go nuts.

Originally Posted by simonmark6

2) Boat building and navigation techniques

This depends heavily on whether they brought shipwrights with them. Boat-building in Europe was not a simple technology, and if you didn't bring specialists, it wouldn't be easy to recreate it. While I imagine there would be an improvement in Native American shipbuilding, I don't think they'd necessarily achieve European levels.

Originally Posted by simonmark6

the dissemination of potatoes in the Thirteenth or Fourteenth centuries

That relies on a lot of assumptions - remember, potatoes were a South American crop. So to disseminate potatoes to Europe early, the crop has to a) come north from South America, either brought by the Welsh (who'd have to travel a long way), or by other people to whom the Welsh boatbuilding technology had dispersed (which would probably take a long time - I'd be surprised if it made it to Meso America within a century, and then the potatoes still have to disperse north), and then somebody has to make the journey back across the Atlantic, which, as I pointed out above, is something of a stretch in itself.

Originally Posted by simonmark6

6) Farming techniques, they'd likely cause a more sedentary life amongst the Native Americans and after the initial lowering of life expectancy, populations would pick up, later colonists might find larger but less firece populations facing them. That, coupled with more advanced weaponry and, possibly, horses, could make for interesting scenarios,

Bear in mind that most of the populations that the Europeans encountered in our timeline were already agricultural. And I would dispute the assertion that agricultural cultures are "less fierce". Rather the reverse, in fact - cultures with agriculture usually have larger populations and more opportunities to develop a dedicated warrior class - hunter-gatherers skirmish sometimes, but organized war is a hallmark of civilization.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

They may want to, but if you put the Italians in Suez, there's no way anyone in Iberia could do it cheaper. And a westward expedition becomes even more unlikely if a wealthier and therefore more educated Europe comes up with a better estimation of the size of the world. If someone corrects the Ptolemeic calculation for the circumference of the Earth, it'll become clear that going the long way around is unprofitably long.

The Portuguese still have all the incentive they need to go around Africa, cutting out the Italian middleman, it doesn't really matter who's monopolizing the trade through the Suez, they're still profiteering from it, which means opportunities for the Portuguese trade fleets to go around them.

Besides, everyone in Portugal knew Columbus' numbers were off, from his navigation instructors in Sagres to the nobles who turned down his expedition.

What this gives you then, is Portuguese trade fleets eventually making their way up the Americas, trading with the descendants of the Welsh and Scandinavian settlers.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

This strikes as more of a cultural accident of the Welsh situation in Europe, rather than some sort of law of nature.

It is largely due to a combination of hereditary leadership with partible inheritance. The Welsh didn't give up either tradition under pressure from the Saxons or the Normans, so though they might do so in the New World there is no reason to suppose that they would.

[NorphTehDwarf]

Originally Posted by Agemegos

It is largely due to a combination of hereditary leadership with partible inheritance. The Welsh didn't give up either tradition under pressure from the Saxons or the Normans, so though they might do so in the New World there is no reason to suppose that they would.

On the other hand, they'd have a hell of a lot more land, no? It might have taken more than the time from initial colonization to the time of the rest of Europe's arrival on the scene for the Newwalesians to become fully fractious.

Also, here's an interesting setting based on alternative colonization of the Americas. It takes things further ahead than this, but may serve as inspiration for all that:

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Inland_Empire

[Ed the Coastie]

Originally Posted by simonmark6

5) Christianity: The Welsh remained Christian even when England became paganised after the fall of Roman Rule, in fact, St. Patrick, the saint who converted Ireland was a Welshman and his followers and descendants brought Christianity back to the mianland of Britain. There is no reason to suspect that this evangelical streak would not continue and find root somewhere. This would help any colonists that come later, priests will speak Latin as well as Welsh and have a good chance of being able to communicate with any later expedition

That answers one of the questions with which I was wrestling...the nature of religion among the Welsh. Although due to lack of contact with Rome, I suppose that their form of Christianity will more closely resemble Celtic Christianity than it would the Roman variety.

[combatmedic]

There never really was any ''Celtic Church.'' There were, in Ireland and parts of Scotland, variations from some of the policies and doctrines of Rome. These were most prevalent in the 6th and 7th centuries AD. Over time, these local variations were gradually eliminated.

Wales of the 12th century was Roman Catholic, just as much so as any other part of the British Isles.

[simonmark6]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

There never really was any ''Celtic Church.'' There were, in Ireland and parts of Scotland, variations from some of the policies and doctrines of Rome. These were most prevalent in the 6th and 7th centuries AD. Over time, these local variations were gradually eliminated.

Wales of the 12th century was Roman Catholic, just as much so as any other part of the British Isles.

That's exactly the way I see it. The church would want to maintain strong links with the Mother Church if it could, which might also stimulate the desire to maintain and develop shipbuilding.

As to a strong Madoc Empire, this might have a serious efect on Western History, if, and its a big if they kept contact with the homeland. A strong Empire with easy access, easier than in the West, to gold could bankroll the Welsh and Irish opposition to Anglo-Norman conquest. they might also support the Scots on an "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" assumption, but possibly not otherwise.

An American Empire would probably hire mercenaries to help the cause and if nothing else would slow Anglo-Norman acquisitions. this would weaken the position of England in the global game and could ensure that it remained an unimportant island at the edge of Europe. this would strengthen France and Spain, the French being long time allies of the Welsh.

As for factionalism being inbred, I doubt any cultural trait is inbred, but if you look at the Welsh's Celtic antecedents and extrapolate the tendency that the Welsh still have to factionalise, I find a Welsh Empire unlikely.

At present Welsh Nationalists are seeking Independence from England. If this happens, I'd be betting that North and South Wales would split in about 50 years and then Cardiff, Swansea and Newport would become bitter political rivals. I might well lose that bet, but I have my doubts (OK, This is a bit ridiculous, but it has a ring of truth, and I should know, I was there)