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Old 09-20-2017, 07:30 PM   #1
b-dog
 
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Default It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

I have bought the DFRPG when it was a kickstarter. So far I think it is done well but one thing I would like to have would be to have some AD&D style demons. The DF demons are ok but the AD&D style demons were much more powerful. For example the toxifier is just a one trick pony while even the lowest demons had nasty powers and the ability to gate other demons in. The peshkali is pretty neat but a Type V Demon from AD&D has powers, psionics, gate ability and magic resistance. Plus they had cool amulets too. The demon princes of AD&D were really awesome but I am sure they are copywrited. But the regular demons could be done with the DFRPG without much trouble. The Type 1 was a vulture humanoid demon, the Type 2 was a toad humanoid demon, and so on. Anyway, I think when you come from AD&D into DF one thing stands out and that is the demons are a lot lamer not to mention that there are no devils or daemons either.
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Old 09-20-2017, 10:41 PM   #2
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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Originally Posted by b-dog View Post
demons
I actually think theres great potential in some monster oriented supplement that gives us challenges that are not supposed to be overcome by new players, something to aspire to, as well as a whole spectrum of threads under it, locations, items, plots, new spells, perks, etc. Maybe angels as well, and improve the holy and unholy archetypes, etc.

I dont know, maybe its too clichê, but hey, its DF!
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Old 09-21-2017, 09:02 AM   #3
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

Please remember that the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game box is an intro. The included monsters are meant to be useful when starting a campaign, not to challenge PCs at sky-high power levels. The two adventures developed for the Kickstarter indicate the general tenor of challenges expected.

I agree that 250-point delvers are powerful. The templates in GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 15: Henchmen were designed to do double duty as templates for adventurers who are just starting out, and it pegs the "zero" of "zero to hero" at 125 points. The Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game assumes the 125- to 250-point career arc happened sometime in the past, and aims to cover a second phase of equal scope, or from 250 to 375 points.

Now it's difficult to compare the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game or GURPS to AD&D, but I'd say 250-point delvers are around halfway between level 1 and the level after which no new HD are gained – level 9-11 in most cases. That's something like level 5-6. It's sloppy math, but I'd place "level 1" at around 125 points and "level 9-11" at around 375 points. I've often seen people say things like 100 points + 25 points/level, which gives 125 points at level 1, 250 points at level 6, and 375 points at level 11.

Serious demons, devils, etc. in AD&D were aimed toward level 9+ characters. Actual princes and lords were barely fair for level 14+ heroes. Thus, we're talking about monsters that would show up once people reach the 325- to 450-point range in the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game. In other words, stuff that mostly happens outside the top end of what the box covers.

So . . . There's definitely room for such challenges. However, that's all in the future.
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Old 09-21-2017, 10:26 AM   #4
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Please remember that the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game box is an intro. The included monsters are meant to be useful when starting a campaign, not to challenge PCs at sky-high power levels. The two adventures developed for the Kickstarter indicate the general tenor of challenges expected.

I agree that 250-point delvers are powerful. The templates in GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 15: Henchmen were designed to do double duty as templates for adventurers who are just starting out, and it pegs the "zero" of "zero to hero" at 125 points. The Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game assumes the 125- to 250-point career arc happened sometime in the past, and aims to cover a second phase of equal scope, or from 250 to 375 points.

Now it's difficult to compare the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game or GURPS to AD&D, but I'd say 250-point delvers are around halfway between level 1 and the level after which no new HD are gained – level 9-11 in most cases. That's something like level 5-6. It's sloppy math, but I'd place "level 1" at around 125 points and "level 9-11" at around 375 points. I've often seen people say things like 100 points + 25 points/level, which gives 125 points at level 1, 250 points at level 6, and 375 points at level 11.

Serious demons, devils, etc. in AD&D were aimed toward level 9+ characters. Actual princes and lords were barely fair for level 14+ heroes. Thus, we're talking about monsters that would show up once people reach the 325- to 450-point range in the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game. In other words, stuff that mostly happens outside the top end of what the box covers.

So . . . There's definitely room for such challenges. However, that's all in the future.
Hopefully there are more books about demons because they are a major bad guy to fight. I like demons to have a lot of options as far as powers too. I do like the AD&D split between demons and devils, maybe the split might be between the fallen who were once angels but were cast into Hell (devils) and those malign beings that arose from the Abyss and sort of were created out of pure evil (demons).
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Old 09-21-2017, 11:00 AM   #5
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

Well, you've got elder things in DF, for wicked creatures other than demons. It's not like D&D, but you could draw tons of inspiration from WoW.
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Old 09-21-2017, 11:32 AM   #6
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

Monster Hunter bestiaries are meant for like 400 point characters in contemporary times, you could borrow a few of those for high level encounters, just change any guns (which a lot of monsters don't actually have) to cool gnomish gadgetry. I think they are closer to templates though of a monster type than a finished monster though. EG, there are a few strong demons (and random roll charts to give them cool extras) but it doesn't immediately feel like a named entity like President Amy or Great Marquis Forneus; those personal touches are up to the GM.

Doing things like creating a morphologically sound demon (eg Forneus prefers the shape of a man, so nothing weird like extra heads and arms) and then giving appropriate special abilities (EG: for Forneus, Rapier Wit (Words of Power) or powerful mind control to demonstrate his ability to "make one beloved by his foes" or his acumen that allows him to "give men the understanding and knowledge of many tongues.") pulls the package together, now you just let the delvers figure out how to defeat or bypass his 29 legions and storm his castle.
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Old 09-21-2017, 11:49 AM   #7
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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Well, you've got elder things in DF, for wicked creatures other than demons. It's not like D&D, but you could draw tons of inspiration from WoW.
But I think of Elder Things as being in the Prime Material Plane (although shunted or hiding in other dimensions of it) while demons and devils are from other planes.
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Old 09-22-2017, 10:37 AM   #8
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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What about the difference between the fallen angels and the demons that formed from pure evil?
"Fallen angels becoming demons" assume a unique and upper origin for all things, matching with "monotheism", and with the adage corruptio optimi pessima. As you said, we find this in Christianity for instance.

"Demons formed from pure evil", instead, relate to dualistic cosmologies (in the Gnostic/Manichaean/Cathar sense), or even to maltheism (in the sense of darkness as "the only true principle").

Another origin for devils (or demons) is they as the "dark brothers" of angels (or plural divinities), matching with cosmic dualities (not to mistake with dualism, which is irresolvable), again originating from a single extra-cosmic source. This can be found in Hinduism.

Even deep layers of meaning redeeming "the demonic" by linking it with the unmanifest as the upper darkness, have nothing to do with the distinction you're looking for.

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I do like the AD&D split between demons and devils, maybe the split might be between the fallen who were once angels but were cast into Hell (devils) and those malign beings that arose from the Abyss and sort of were created out of pure evil (demons).
Even if fallen angels turned into demons haven't the same origins than beings native to hell, they are demons/devils in any case: it's just that these angels, now demons, in the first place were the opposite at the dawn of creation.



I don't see how any of these angles matches with the demons & devils distinction enunciated in this thread, and for what it's worth I don't find it very meaningful. As it has been said above, all of it is related to an opposition between lawful and chaotic alignments between the very infernal beings, which is a very specific setting assumpion, the Blood War.

It lacks universality, intrinsic sense, and I can't find anything matching with such a thing in myth, cosmology, folklore or theology.

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And also in Infernum, Book of the Damned (where, IIRC, demons were natives to Hell, and devils were fallen angels), so it's not unique to ADD.
I don't know this OGL RPG, but at first glance, it looks to my mind like a distinction likely inherited from D&D.

Now, the distinction between fallen angels and beings native to hell makes sense in itself, but calling devils the former and the latter demons, or vice versa, still is rather peculiar.
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Old 09-22-2017, 10:58 AM   #9
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

So if there is no distinction between fallen angels and demons that were formed to be evil then couldn't you say there is no distinction between demons and undead? Or fairies or any monster? Or even any adversary? And why even have any description of monsters at all? Why not just have numerical stats? There is something in the dungeon with DR5, 20HP, reach C and does 1d6 damage from an attack at skill 18.
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Old 09-25-2017, 11:52 AM   #10
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
I've often seen people say things like 100 points + 25 points/level, which gives 125 points at level 1, 250 points at level 6, and 375 points at level 11.
The maths works out pretty well for that in D&D3.x, assuming a not very generous stat generation method. More generous methods mean a higher base, and different descendants of 3.x have different advancement rates, but it's a decent baseline.
Quote:
Serious demons, devils, etc. in AD&D were aimed toward level 9+ characters. Actual princes and lords were barely fair for level 14+ heroes. Thus, we're talking about monsters that would show up once people reach the 325- to 450-point range in the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game. In other words, stuff that mostly happens outside the top end of what the box covers.
Type V devils used to (in AD&D1) carve up quite high level parties. Type V demons used to carve up slightly lower level parties and their entire army of followers, hirelings, and minions. It was, I always thought, an interesting distinction between demons (army killers) and devils (hero killers) in AD&D1.
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