[Ultra-Tech] What does the TL10 battlefield look like

[AlexanderHowl]

Unless there is a world government though, there will always be nations that will use insurgents as proxies against governments that they dislike. A cargo container full of 10,000,000 robobugs could kill the population of an entire city within hours and, unlike other WMDs, it would not destroy the infrastructure or leave dangerous residuals. It is also mostly reusable, the entire deployment would have a capital cost of $1 billion plus $50 million for the 10,000,000 dose of nanoburn, so every deployment would probably cost $100 million, which is a relatively cheap price to gain an undamaged TL10 city.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Unless there is a world government though, there will always be nations that will use insurgents as proxies against governments that they dislike. A cargo container full of 10,000,000 robobugs could kill the population of an entire city within hours and, unlike other WMDs, it would not destroy the infrastructure or leave dangerous residuals. It is also mostly reusable, the entire deployment would have a capital cost of $1 billion plus $50 million for the 10,000,000 dose of nanoburn, so every deployment would probably cost $100 million, which is a relatively cheap price to gain an undamaged TL10 city.

How would killing almost all of the civilian population allow you to occupy a city in an undamaged state at TL 10? The military robots defending the city would still remain.

Also, if robobugs are being used on such scales, why would civilians expose themselves to such attacks? TL 10 economies don't need many people walking about in the open. It is even questionable whether they need any human workers at all.

[Michael Thayne]

One thing Ultra-Tech is really missing is like, a faster, combat-capable robot mule. I say "robot mule" because the mule (UT79-80) is just the right size to mount a squad support weapon—but unfortunately, it has mediocre DX, and is too slow to be really suitable for long-distance travel. Fixing those shortcomings would presumably result in something more expensive than its listed low, low price of $3,000, but it would be cheaper than the Warbot, which is sort of overkill for mounting squad-support weapons. Weirdly, combat androids, which you might think would be a good platform for squad support weapons, are almost as expensive as a warbot (also slow). I tried looking at 3e Robots and Reign of Steel for a small wheeled or tracked combat robot, but both sources really like their humanoid designs, for some reason.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Unless there is a world government though, there will always be nations that will use insurgents as proxies against governments that they dislike. A cargo container full of 10,000,000 robobugs could kill the population of an entire city within hours and, unlike other WMDs, it would not destroy the infrastructure or leave dangerous residuals. It is also mostly reusable, the entire deployment would have a capital cost of $1 billion plus $50 million for the 10,000,000 dose of nanoburn, so every deployment would probably cost $100 million, which is a relatively cheap price to gain an undamaged TL10 city.

You sort of lose plausible deniability once you take the city, though. OTOH robobugs are great for assassinations. Not sure they give you that much deniability, but as long as you limit yourself to targets who don't seem quite important enough to start a war over, that might not matter. Likely targets include leaders of third-rate powers, as well as defectors and dissidents living abroad.

[Neveron]

Remember, the Hague Conventions banned the use of all poisons and asphyxiating gases. Hence the wars that followed, such as World War One, obviously did not have anyone use such weapons - one should expect future wars between world powers to behave similarly, and thus you shouldn't have to worry about WMDs and whatnot.

Besides, the Geneva Conventions never said anything about robobugs.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Unless there is a world government though, there will always be nations that will use insurgents as proxies against governments that they dislike. A cargo container full of 10,000,000 robobugs could kill the population of an entire city within hours and, unlike other WMDs, it would not destroy the infrastructure or leave dangerous residuals. It is also mostly reusable, the entire deployment would have a capital cost of $1 billion plus $50 million for the 10,000,000 dose of nanoburn, so every deployment would probably cost $100 million, which is a relatively cheap price to gain an undamaged TL10 city.

Robugs would be unshielded and relatively easily to take down with area effect EMPs.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

One thing Ultra-Tech is really missing is like, a faster, combat-capable robot mule. I say "robot mule" because the mule (UT79-80) is just the right size to mount a squad support weapon—but unfortunately, it has mediocre DX, and is too slow to be really suitable for long-distance travel. Fixing those shortcomings would presumably result in something more expensive than its listed low, low price of $3,000, but it would be cheaper than the Warbot, which is sort of overkill for mounting squad-support weapons. Weirdly, combat androids, which you might think would be a good platform for squad support weapons, are almost as expensive as a warbot (also slow). I tried looking at 3e Robots and Reign of Steel for a small wheeled or tracked combat robot, but both sources really like their humanoid designs, for some reason.

My current blog project is actually about just that issue: how to build and price any shape and size robot you want. I'm basing it on spaceships rules, but adjustments so that DR, perception, and weapons stats scale correctly. Its going to take a few months to get the complete system out there, but I've written a good portion of it and I've started posting it.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by acrosome

But at TL10 insurgents have some hellacious obstacles, too. Like wickedly efficient biometrics, facial recognition, crime scene analysis, tailored bioagents, traffic analysis, etc. Insurgents have to be able to hide in the populace, and at TL10 that gets damnably difficult. Hermetically sealed full-body suits that cover the face would be obligatory, as would be never even speaking about anything suspicious in the same room as any electronic device that you haven't built yourself. And NEVER EVER on a cell phone!

This isn't a safe assumption. Insurgencies are defined by a lack of official recognition, which has certain disadvantages, but it doesn't impose a uniform set of tactics or requirements for secrecy. In the extreme case, insurgents can wind up holding territory, which makes their op sec needs more like that of a regular military. Even outside such cases, secrecy can be surprisingly optional. It's unclear, for example, if ubiquitous surveillance would have been much of a problem for the first Klan, because what made them difficult to prosecute was not their masks, but the fact that juries wouldn't convict due to some mix of sympathy and fear. It's even possible to forgo secrecy entirely before you have well-defined territory. Militant leaders have been known to make announcements like, "given the ongoing chaos caused by the recent war, we need to organize a militia to protect ourselves. Don't worry, it's strictly for self defense!" If there's an excess of military-grade weaponry floating around, this can be hard to stop.

Even when we're talking about the terrorist-cell model, there's a big difference between "every device is pwned by the nation's security service" any "any device could be pwned by the nation's security service." The latter is cause for a lot of caution among terrorists who want to die for something rather than nothing, but from the point of view of a legitimate government (or occupying army or whatnot), stopping 50% of terrorist attacks is not really the outcome you're aiming for. Requiring electronics and software manufacturers to include backdoors is possible, but has downsides. What if terrorists get the keys to the backdoor?

[cptbutton]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

At TL10, Robobugs are actually really quite capable when you look at their design. With a Complexity 5 Tiny Computer, they can run IQ 8 Dedicated AI programs (dumb, but capable enough for something that weighs 0.01 pounds), meaning that they can follow orders without being in constant contact with their controller. With the flier and synthetic organs packages, the costs go up to $100 each, but they are indistinguishable from real insects, meaning that they can hide in plain sight. With their really small weight, you could hide an swarm of 10,000 in the trunk of a car of 1,000,000 of them in a cargo container. Now, imagine a swarm of 1,000,000 Robobugs attacking an entire city...and they are reusable.

Now I am picturing a situation where a standard military practice is to use biotech to wipe out all real insects in any potential combat zone to prevent robobugs masquerading as them. Which will screw up the ecology big time.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by cptbutton

Now I am picturing a situation where a standard military practice is to use biotech to wipe out all real insects in any potential combat zone to prevent robobugs masquerading as them.

That's what all the Agent Tangerine is made for.