Issues with Retreating Dodge

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

So the archer only needs maybe two shots to win the fight, but the melee attacker can't win in 5? What kind of skill and defense values are you envisioning here?

You can only retreat against melee attacks. So an arrow shot at you is not an opportunity to slip forwards a yard.

Of course, the thread has run through a multitude of moves that are ways for the melee fighter to gain ground.

It is if you remain in reach, then you can parry it like a melee weapon and thus slip forward.

[Anthony]

I suspect the easiest fix is to change retreat to an out-of-turn step and let you take it for any reason you want, at any time you want.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by MrFix

In reply to Plane's breakdown. I think it's telling that it takes 2 large posts to arrive to something that, if it was intentional, would require only one sentence: "This counts as step part of your next maneuver".

I was arguing CURRENT maneuver, not next

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by MrFix

It is if you remain in reach, then you can parry it like a melee weapon and thus slip forward.

Interesting theory, but I don't think so.

Basic 377:'“Retreat” is not a separate defense, but an option you may add to any active defense against a melee attack.' (Underline mine.)

Basic 376, addressing parrying ranged weapons up close: 'If a foe attacks you with a missile weapon and he is within reach of your melee weapon, you may parry.'

376 doesn't say that the attack counts as a melee attack in any sense, and 377 doesn't care what defense you are using, only what kind of attack you are defending against.

And looking at it from the non-legalistic side it's really hard to see why you'd get a bonus for increasing distance when parrying a ranged weapon. The ranged weapon has no more trouble reaching you at an extra step of space, and you have more trouble reaching it!

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I suspect the easiest fix is to change retreat to an out-of-turn step and let you take it for any reason you want, at any time you want.

That definitely has appeal - I don't like the tendency to try to solve the problem by taking away mobility. However, an out of turn step you can interject anywhere does get a bit odd in places.

Mainly, in a number of cases a step interjected just before resolving an attack is superior to a retreat. Dive for Cover in particular is effectively a step that you only get if you succeed on a dodge roll. Depending on spacing, a step at the right moment might let you completely negate an enemy attack instead of merely getting a bonus to defense. It also could be very powerful to use while you have a Wait set.

Perhaps it would be tidier to say it can be spent as a step whenever you want between character turns, but if you want to use it during the resolution of someone else's maneuver you're restricted to the RAW retreat mechanics?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Perhaps it would be tidier to say it can be spent as a step whenever you want between character turns, but if you want to use it during the resolution of someone else's maneuver you're restricted to the RAW retreat mechanics?

Or make it a contest of some sort to interrupt someone else. It's actually desirable to have a mechanic do to something like "step in front of someone trying to run past you".

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Interesting theory, but I don't think so.

Basic 377:'“Retreat” is not a separate defense, but an option you may add to any active defense against a melee attack.' (Underline mine.)

Basic 376, addressing parrying ranged weapons up close: 'If a foe attacks you with a missile weapon and he is within reach of your melee weapon, you may parry.'

376 doesn't say that the attack counts as a melee attack in any sense, and 377 doesn't care what defense you are using, only what kind of attack you are defending against.

And looking at it from the non-legalistic side it's really hard to see why you'd get a bonus for increasing distance when parrying a ranged weapon. The ranged weapon has no more trouble reaching you at an extra step of space, and you have more trouble reaching it!

Looking at it from perspective of a parry, knocking the weapon off course is what parry of a ranged weapon is, so the reach is of little concern. There's no penalty or restriction to parry a Rapier (Reach 1,2) at 1 yard and then step into 2 yards. The weapon can still reach you just the same, except you still benefit from Retreat. Same applies to ranged weapons. Tactical Shooting goes on to define that shooting in melee is effectively a melee attack and uses melee attack maneuvers.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by MrFix

Looking at it from perspective of a parry, knocking the weapon off course is what parry of a ranged weapon is, so the reach is of little concern. There's no penalty or restriction to parry a Rapier (Reach 1,2) at 1 yard and then step into 2 yards. The weapon can still reach you just the same, except you still benefit from Retreat. Same applies to ranged weapons. Tactical Shooting goes on to define that shooting in melee is effectively a melee attack and uses melee attack maneuvers.

Except that retreating from a missile attack is obviously worthless and the exact wrong thing to do.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by MrFix

Looking at it from perspective of a parry, knocking the weapon off course is what parry of a ranged weapon is, so the reach is of little concern. There's no penalty or restriction to parry a Rapier (Reach 1,2) at 1 yard and then step into 2 yards. The weapon can still reach you just the same, except you still benefit from Retreat.

No, the weapon can't reach you just the same. It can still reach, yes, but it isn't the same motion. The attacker has to adapt their strike to land it properly. With a ranged weapon, on the other hand, it's all point blank - the exact same shot works.

And of course on the gripping hand of how it benefits your defense, against a melee weapon a retreat gives you more space and time to redirect the attack. Against a missile weapon, it simply doesn't do that - you still need to intervene in the same window before the shot is loosed. You're only making that intervention more difficult by putting yourself in motion away from your target.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Except that retreating from a missile attack is obviously worthless and the exact wrong thing to do.

Also, this.

Originally Posted by Anthony

Or make it a contest of some sort to interrupt someone else. It's actually desirable to have a mechanic do to something like "step in front of someone trying to run past you".

You can do that with a Wait already, but that might work. I'm not sure what contest you'd use though. Giving a lot of power to contests of Basic Speed or the like seems un-GURPS.

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

No, the weapon can't reach you just the same. It can still reach, yes, but it isn't the same motion. The attacker has to adapt their strike to land it properly. With a ranged weapon, on the other hand, it's all point blank - the exact same shot works.

And of course on the gripping hand of how it benefits your defense, against a melee weapon a retreat gives you more space and time to redirect the attack. Against a missile weapon, it simply doesn't do that - you still need to intervene in the same window before the shot is loosed. You're only making that intervention more difficult by putting yourself in motion away from your target.

Also, this.

You can do that with a Wait already, but that might work. I'm not sure what contest you'd use though. Giving a lot of power to contests of Basic Speed or the like seems un-GURPS.

I already said the idea is to deflect the weapon, not the shot, the shot misses regardless as long as you knock it aside. Please do not make me repeat it once again.