[RPM] Various Questions on Ritual Path Magic

[Landwalker]

Terrific. I think that's just another case of me being more used to extremely explicit and, as you say, legalistic parameters than GURPS is necessarily accustomed to spelling out. Thanks again for the help.

[GarenLiLorian]

Two questions:

1) MH1 says that effective skill is reduced by one for each path after the second. What about multiple effects from the same path? For example:2 lesser strengthen body effects for minor stealth and night vision bonuses, plus a lesser control magic to make it a charm: roll at -1 to skill?

2) Would 'charms only' be an effective limitation on a Sage's magic, and if so, how much would you consider it to be worth?

Thanks in advance

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by GarenLiLorian

1) MH1 says that effective skill is reduced by one for each path after the second. What about multiple effects from the same path? For example:2 lesser strengthen body effects for minor stealth and night vision bonuses, plus a lesser control magic to make it a charm: roll at -1 to skill?

Originally Posted by Monster Hunters 1 p. 35

If only one Path is being used, this is simple; e.g., a spell of Lesser Control Undead and Greater Destroy Undead would use Path of Undead for all rolls. For spells that mix two paths, the
caster uses the lower of the two. (Remember that anyone with
Thaumatology skill knows all of the Path skills at default!) If
the spell requires three or more paths, the caster uses his lowest
one and is at a -1 penalty (to all ritual-related rolls) for every
Path past the first two.

I highlighted the relevant part. As for charm's the above covers that as well. :-)

Originally Posted by GarenLiLorian

2) Would 'charms only' be an effective limitation on a Sage's magic, and if so, how much would you consider it to be worth?

I'd check out this post by the man himself.

[Anaraxes]

Too bad Ghostdancer already has a forum title, or we could dub him "The RPM Apprentice".

(That sounded more dignified than "PK Jr.")

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Too bad Ghostdancer already has a forum title, or we could dub him "The RPM Apprentice".

(That sounded more dignified than "PK Jr.")

I'd be honored by either title. ;-)

I just try to help out where I can. If a thread's tagged RPM I try to swoop in quick if I know the answer 'cause I know PK has a ton of crap to do and I well...I have no life. :/

Ghostdancer

[GarenLiLorian]

Thank you for the quick reply! To clarify:

Originally Posted by Monster Hunters 1 p. 35
If only one Path is being used, this is simple; e.g., a spell of Lesser Control Undead and Greater Destroy Undead would use Path of Undead for all rolls. For spells that mix two paths, the
caster uses the lower of the two. (Remember that anyone with
Thaumatology skill knows all of the Path skills at default!) If
the spell requires three or more paths, the caster uses his lowest
one and is at a -1 penalty (to all ritual-related rolls) for every
Path past the first two.

-A spell that uses three paths gets a -1 to all skill rolls. However, as written, a spell that uses three effects from the -same- path uses full skill. This seems like a loophole to me. (15 lesser strengthen body effects for +3 to all DX based skills and half a dozen 5 or 10 point advantages! Roll on full skill!) Is this intentional? What's the intended balance, if there is one? Particularly since combining multiple effects from the same path into one skill also dodges the 'only one effect per path can be active at a time' caveat. How have people handled this in their own games, if it's come up?

EDIT: My own inclination would be to reword that passage to say 'if the spell requires three or more effects the caster uses his lowest path skill and is at a -1 penalty (to all ritual-related rolls) for every effect past the first two.

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer
-10% at most, it does hamper you but you can still cast Conditional Spells and create Potions. If you cannot do ANY of those things, I'd peg it at maybe -30% (-20% for all that feels better though).
This hasn't come up, but my gut feeling would be to divide conditionals into three categories:

Charms
Potions
Other ("normal") conditionals

Then say it's -10% to Magery if you can't create one, -15% for two, and -20% for all three.

EDIT2: Right. Potions are in Thaumatology 3. I guess I should look into getting that.

EDIT3: But what about magery that can create charms, but not potions, 'normal' conditionals or 'non-conditional' spells? The major limitation (for a Sage, anyway) seems to be the inability to work magic in the field.

Thank you!

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by GarenLiLorian

-A spell that uses three paths gets a -1 to all skill rolls. However, as written, a spell that uses three effects from the -same- path uses full skill. This seems like a loophole to me. (15 lesser strengthen body effects for +3 to all DX based skills and half a dozen 5 or 10 point advantages! Roll on full skill!) Is this intentional? What's the intended balance, if there is one? Particularly since combining multiple effects from the same path into one skill also dodges the 'only one effect per path can be active at a time' caveat. How have people handled this in their own games, if it's come up?

It's not really come up to be honest. My players for the most part (unless I tell them to do otherwise) don't go in for abject munchkinry. They know I won't tolerate it, but they do on the other hand point out holes they notice. That said I don't see a problem with your hypothetical up there. You're adding a extra +3 (for a Strengthen Body effect) per additional effect you got going. That adds up. Quick. Remember every third attempt at gathering energy is -1 to the attempt, cumulative. Also remember +3 to DX-based skills is not Bestow a Bonus (DX-based rolls) it's Altered Trait, DX+3! This can be prohibitively costly. The last time something like this came up in my game the main RPM caster decided to give everyone a +1 DX, Extra Attack, Ambidexterity, and Striking ST+2. Even outside of combat this became difficult (I think it took something like 9 rolls to finish that sucker up).

Originally Posted by GarenLiLorian

EDIT: My own inclination would be to reword that passage to say 'if the spell requires three or more effects the caster uses his lowest path skill and is at a -1 penalty (to all ritual-related rolls) for every effect past the first two.

Seems reasonable and if you are afraid that not doing that will break the game start it off that way. If it's too harsh you can always roll it back and the players won't complain. Instigating it after the easier penalties on the other hand might not go so well...

Thomas Weigel and PK (and many others) beat on the RPM system till they broke it - then they fixed it. I've not really come across anything I've found supremely cracked and I've been using it since before the first MH book came out. That said, there is nothing wrong with doing it your way - if you're the GM you make the rules. PK has said it numerous times - heck the RPM book says it! If you like it this way your players shouldn't gripe.

Originally Posted by GarenLiLorian

-What's a potion and how is it different than a charm? I don't recall anything about potions in MH1, though I could have just missed it.

[shameless self-promotion] You can find it here.[/shameless self-promotion]

It'll be in the upcoming RPM book as the main method for using Alchemy with RPM.

Originally Posted by GarenLiLorian

Thank you!

Most welcome. :-)

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by GarenLiLorian

EDIT2: Right. Potions are in Thaumatology 3. I guess I should look into getting that.

A'yup.

Originally Posted by GarenLiLorian

EDIT3: But what about magery that can create charms, but not potions, 'normal' conditionals or 'non-conditional' spells? The major limitation (for a Sage, anyway) seems to be the inability to work magic in the field.

Yes. BUT, the Sage can in a pinch use the Adept times if he is disperate and can soak the -5 penalty to such a roll. A Sage with that limitation couldn't do that! All of his spellwork needs to be prepped beforehand. Each one he can't do is worth -10% so if he could do "Charms Only" that would be -20%. Its the same as "Not Conditional spells or potions, -20%"

[PK]

Originally Posted by GarenLiLorian

-A spell that uses three paths gets a -1 to all skill rolls. However, as written, a spell that uses three effects from the -same- path uses full skill. This seems like a loophole to me. (15 lesser strengthen body effects for +3 to all DX based skills and half a dozen 5 or 10 point advantages! Roll on full skill!) Is this intentional?

Absolutely. The number of effects don't matter -- that's covered by the energy cost of the spell. A ritual with 15 LSB effects will cost a ton more to cast than one with a single effect.

The rule for what skill to use, and when to apply a penalty, has nothing to do with balancing the power level of the spell. It has to do with balancing the versatility of the caster. It makes focused spells easier to cast than "kitchen sink spells" that try to (for example) give the subject every possible buff the caster can think of.

In other words, a spell that gives protection from fire, FP loss from heat, and lets the caster sense flame attacks (Path of Energy x3, so no penalty to cast) is supposed to be easier to cast than one that gives protection from fire, lets the subject talk to squirrels, and gives him Luck (the lowest Path of Chance, Energy, or Mind, at -1).

EDIT: My own inclination would be to reword that passage to say 'if the spell requires three or more effects the caster uses his lowest path skill and is at a -1 penalty (to all ritual-related rolls) for every effect past the first two.

I strongly recommend against that, as you're double-punishing the caster (by charging him energy and penalizing him for his effects), and also making it easier for casters to create unfocused spells.

That said, I'm certainly not going to come stop you from playing if you make that change. :)

EDIT3: But what about magery that can create charms, but not potions, 'normal' conditionals or 'non-conditional' spells? The major limitation (for a Sage, anyway) seems to be the inability to work magic in the field.

Charms only? That's a big loss. I'd probably give -30% for being unable to cast magic "in the field," regardless of whether you had Ritual Adept. Then "No potions or non-charm conditionals" would be another -15% per a previous suggestion of mine.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by PK

Charms only? That's a big loss. I'd probably give -30% for being unable to cast magic "in the field," regardless of whether you had Ritual Adept. Then "No potions or non-charm conditionals" would be another -15% per a previous suggestion of mine.

I'd like to ask a question if I may (one of my players brought this up): Since Magery is basically a Energy Reserve and a Perk when you take limitations like "Dark-Aspected" "Musical", or whatever how does that interact with the mana reserve? Is that energy available only for those sort of effects (if you have different levels of Magery) or to others (if you share it). Basically does the Magery flavor the mana reserve at all?