DF: Still can't challenge the Swashbuckler - Page 6

ULFGARD · 06-02-2014, 12:43 PM

Oddly enough, in my DF game I created a "match" for the swashbuckler -- an Aristocrat with good enough sword skills to provide a great duel. Alas, my swashbuckler's player wasn't there for that session. The newbie mage took care of said Aristocrat, though, with an incredibly overpowered airjet, knocking him off the ship they were fighting on. Granted, the guy could've come back, but without him there, it was obvious that the fight would go south. So he swam off to safety (?).

Air Jet. It can be dodged (tough to do in the poor lighting of a night fight aboard a ship), but that's it. And it's a quick and easy spell for a wizard to get to.

There must be dozens of nasty ways to hurt swashbucklers. I like crossbows wielded by mooks for the lightly armored in any party, as they can be nasty and make decent loot later. I haven't had the chance to have a good flail user try to entangle the blades yet...

Varyon · 06-02-2014, 01:56 PM

You've mentioned that throwing piles of baddies doesn't help. I assume this means you're throwing a large number of enemies who simply attack him, get parried, and get disemboweled.

First off, you'll want to have enemies that actually work together. Some attack from the front, some attack from behind - a pincer attack is likely to let something get through. Additionally, if you have Pyramid #3.65, there are some good teamwork bits there - while clearly intended for players, they will also work well for, say, a hivemind of giant insectoids. Notable are the Overwhelm option for Coordinated Action, and the restating of the benefits of the Teamwork Perk - particularly the ability to Feint for an ally, and sacrificial Block/Parry. Pyramid #3.52 also introduces the idea of the Setup Attack, which is essentially a Deceptive Attack that transfers its penalty to later attacks, and suggests allowing such to stack and also to be able to be exploited by allies, particularly with a teamwork-related Perk.

Combining all these together, let's say you've got a group of SM-2 insectoid monsters, all with Brawling-16, Coordinated Action 5, Teamwork, Reach C,1 claws (really big ones), and Extra Attack. You can probably fit 2 such creatures to a hex, so let's say we've got 8 on him - two in Close Combat, the others all in his Front hex (we'll assume they weren't able to manage a pincer attack - or rather that there used to be several more of them, and they died while getting into position). Combining Overwhelm with Setup Attack, as well as the fact that each monster is attacking twice, means by the time we reach the last monster the swashbuckler is going to be suffering some potentially-massive penalties to defense - he's at -5 on attack #4 (of 16) and beyond thanks to Coordinated Action, he's suffering a -1 for every two attacks thanks to Multiple Parries (at -7 for the final two hits), and as his defenses drop the Setups have a decent chance to start to accumulate, making it much less likely he'll avoid the final attack of the set (wherein the monsters "cash in" all that Setup, although even without it the swashbuckler's at -12 for the final two attacks). When his attack comes around, he's got the potential for all of his attacks to have to deal with multiple Parries per attack - particularly if you drop those first 4 attacks and have the monsters in CC use All Out Defense (Double). It can get even worse if you decide to adapt Defensive Feints to Setup Attacks (forcing the foe out of position to properly attack rather than defend).

Of course, anyone's going to fall apart against something like that, right? Well, if your mages have any crowd-control or area of effect spells - and you require the beasts to stay in tight formation while moving (necessary for "Forming Up" anyway) - they should be able to tear the beasts apart... or at least delay them for a good while. The knight should have much better DR than the swashbuckler, so if the little monsters have low damage he can probably tank them rather effectively. This last bit would be useful for introducing the monsters - the swashbuckler has time to discover these aren't going to be a walk in the park, and is hopefully still able to retreat and let the knight tank them (and/or the mages handle them) before he runs out of HP and of dies horribly. A dungeon filled with such creatures will probably be enough to convince them they need to invest in more than "make the swashbuckler more awesome." You can even have some of the loot in the dungeon be more conducive to this - give the swashbuckler a magical saber (because it's not fair to leave him completely out), but give the mages some scrolls and/or grimoires of appropriate spells, and give the knight an axe that causes a small, possibly knockback-only AoE on impact (probably more in the form of a short cone, so that it doesn't hit him as well).

JMason · 06-06-2014, 10:12 AM

Update from last night's game: So I stocked my current dungeon and threw in what I thought might be some challenges, but due to the sort session time and some stuff I needed to cover with my players, we only had time for two combats that session.

I should also point out that the Knight couldn't make it (and might be dropping out permanently) so it was just the SB, Cleric, and Wizard. Oh, and the Goblin Burglar hireling.

The first was a set of 4 Acid Spiders (worthy) that were crawling around a caverns and got the drop on the players. This nearly killed the wizard (one attack brought him down to -HP), but the others avoided getting hit. Swashbuckler was hit once failing his dodge, but used Luck and came out unscathed. Then he single-handedly killed all four spiders: First Attack Feint that that he usually rolled ~15 under his 26 skill while the spider rolled around ~5 under. This made sure that the spider could only dodge on a 3-4. For his second attack he used Rapid Strike 4 attacks (doing about 10 cutting damage each).

It was sort of ridicules, these guys had 4 DR and 26 HP, but were taken down each turn one by one. The other party members were able to keep the spiders off the SB, but didn't manage to hurt but one... for one point.

Still, this wasn't meant as something balanced to challenge the SB, but it did punctuate that he is an utter combat monster.

The next area was a bit of a different story. It was was filled with a waste deep pool... and several Erupting Slimes. The first shots came out of the dark pool and the players had no chance to dodge. This hit the cleric and SB. It took 4 turns for the slime to work its way to the SB, and as the combat wore on he was hit 2 more times.

Due to his fear of the water the SB refused to get close, and only threw a few knives at the slimes. Due to the creatures defused nature the combat took a LOG time. Every stayed back, the casters throwing missile spells at the slimes that crept to the edge of the water.

I made most of these fodder and they just went down, but a few were "worthy" and needed to be taken to 0 HP... which took quite some time. The group just didn't know what to do.

This combat did end up causing the SB to take damage with the three hits that got him (he even went down to less than 1/3 HP, but was healed the next turn by the cleric).

More importantly, it gave the others a chance to shine. The Wizard made good use his spells, and the cleric balanced between support and using his own attacks (sun bolt).

---

So I have a few more things I want to try. There are other complications though: 1) The area they are in doesn't support (story-wise) the more exotic monsters... no divine servitors or whatever. 2) The Cleric is a Celestial, so any demon is going to attack him first. 3) I don't want to overplay the same trick.

I'll see how things go next time.

Nereidalbel · 06-06-2014, 10:17 AM

Which missile spells does your mage know, anyway?

And is the Knight still ~50 points behind, assuming he doesn't drop out permanently? Working some sort of story in to get a class lens added to him can help him catch up in usefulness.

DangerousThing · 06-06-2014, 10:26 AM

On that note, is the Knight's player quitting because he feels useless?

DF seem to be made for each party member to have a niche. An armored knight should be able to do *something* better than the SB, even at 250 points. I also feel that it is fair to give his character points to catch up to the rest.

Kazander · 06-06-2014, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMason

The first was a set of 4 Acid Spiders (worthy) that were crawling around a caverns and got the drop on the players. This nearly killed the wizard (one attack brought him down to -HP), but the others avoided getting hit. Swashbuckler was hit once failing his dodge, but used Luck and came out unscathed. Then he single-handedly killed all four spiders: First Attack Feint that that he usually rolled ~15 under his 26 skill while the spider rolled around ~5 under. This made sure that the spider could only dodge on a 3-4. For his second attack he used Rapid Strike 4 attacks (doing about 10 cutting damage each).

Heh. I'd forgotten that's how it plays out RAW. I have a house rule that only allows the Feint to apply against the next attack, no matter what. So, in my case, it would have only counted against the first attack of the Rapid Strike, not all of them. I also cap Rapid Strike at 3 attacks, unless you're using a very small and fast weapon (knives or fists)--then it caps at 4.
Ditto on the knight; if he's quitting because he feels useless, then you have a problem that needs to be solved for the enjoyment of all. An RPG is intended to be fun first, for everyone. You may find yourself having to reboot your campaign a bit now that you have some experience, and having to adjust everyone's characters.

JMason · 06-06-2014, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Which missile spells does your mage know, anyway?

Lightning, Explosive Lightning, and Flame Jet (not a missile spell, but still)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazander

Heh. I'd forgotten that's how it plays out RAW. I have a house rule that only allows the Feint to apply against the next attack, no matter what. So, in my case, it would have only counted against the first attack of the Rapid Strike, not all of them. I also cap Rapid Strike at 3 attacks, unless you're using a very small and fast weapon (knives or fists)--then it caps at 4.

I'm thinking of doing this. I'm not big on "nerfing" but this optional rule is getting to be a bit too powerful.

As for the Knight, his work is keeping him from playing. We could move the game to the weekend, but that would lead to more games missed by other players.

If he keeps paying, then he'd fall even further behind in CP (due to missed games), or I'd have to give him CP reward even when he didn't show up.

This is the second player lost (the other was a Barbarian that was lost then re-rolled as a Scout, but got "burned out" with DF).

So, yeah... between these problems and losing players, I'm worried that my DF game might be coming to an end. :-(

Nereidalbel · 06-06-2014, 11:51 AM

Scheduling issues suck :/

It may be a good idea to encourage your mage to get Ambidexterity, DWA: Innate Attack, and get his Flame Jet skill high enough for 0 cost sustain. Twin flamethrowers will make him just dangerous enough to compete with the SB on damage.

mlangsdorf · 06-06-2014, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMason

So I have a few more things I want to try. There are other complications though: 1) The area they are in doesn't support (story-wise) the more exotic monsters... no divine servitors or whatever. 2) The Cleric is a Celestial, so any demon is going to attack him first. 3) I don't want to overplay the same trick.

I'll see how things go next time.

Golems, sword-armor golems, electric jellies, and such are neither demons nor particularly exotic (well, at least in the context of skill-24 swordsmen). And Watchers at the End of Time aren't subject to the normal limitations of time and space, so they can appear anywhere. Go crazy with all of them.

And seriously, if you're considering house-ruling the feint rules to nerf the swashbuckler, I'd like to repeat my recommendation that you stop letting him use the optional rule that lets him make multiple rapid strikes. By using that rule, you're basically saying "Weapon Masters can buy Extra Attack for 7 points* - have fun unbalancing my campaign!"

* A -3 penalty to make the extra attack can be effectively bought off for 12 points in skill, but 12 points in skill also gives +1 Parry, which is usually worth 5 points on its own.

Novembermike · 06-06-2014, 04:06 PM

Yeah, get rid of that Rapid Strikes rule. It's ok if everyone is building that sort of character and it's a Wuxia style game but DF has always been at least a little more realistic than Wuxia stuff and the other classes aren't really designed to compete with that. I'd maybe allow Trained By a Master to give him multiple extra strikes but at the full penalty.

06-02-2014, 12:43 PM	#51
ULFGARD Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Seattle	Re: DF: Still can't challenge the Swashbuckler Oddly enough, in my DF game I created a "match" for the swashbuckler -- an Aristocrat with good enough sword skills to provide a great duel. Alas, my swashbuckler's player wasn't there for that session. The newbie mage took care of said Aristocrat, though, with an *incredibly overpowered airjet*, knocking him off the ship they were fighting on. Granted, the guy could've come back, but without him there, it was obvious that the fight would go south. So he swam off to safety (?). Air Jet. It can be dodged (tough to do in the poor lighting of a night fight aboard a ship), but that's it. And it's a quick and easy spell for a wizard to get to. There must be dozens of nasty ways to hurt swashbucklers. I like crossbows wielded by mooks for the lightly armored in any party, as they can be nasty and make decent loot later. I haven't had the chance to have a good flail user try to entangle the blades yet... __________________ Seven Kingdoms, MH (as yet unnamed), and my "pick-up" DF game war stories, characters, and other ruminations can be found here.

06-02-2014, 01:56 PM	#52
Varyon Join Date: Jun 2013	Re: DF: Still can't challenge the Swashbuckler You've mentioned that throwing piles of baddies doesn't help. I assume this means you're throwing a large number of enemies who simply attack him, get parried, and get disemboweled. First off, you'll want to have enemies that actually work together. Some attack from the front, some attack from behind - a pincer attack is likely to let something get through. Additionally, if you have Pyramid #3.65, there are some good teamwork bits there - while clearly intended for players, they will also work well for, say, a hivemind of giant insectoids. Notable are the Overwhelm option for Coordinated Action, and the restating of the benefits of the Teamwork Perk - particularly the ability to Feint for an ally, and sacrificial Block/Parry. Pyramid #3.52 also introduces the idea of the Setup Attack, which is essentially a Deceptive Attack that transfers its penalty to later attacks, and suggests allowing such to stack and also to be able to be exploited by allies, particularly with a teamwork-related Perk. Combining all these together, let's say you've got a group of SM-2 insectoid monsters, all with Brawling-16, Coordinated Action 5, Teamwork, Reach C,1 claws (really big ones), and Extra Attack. You can probably fit 2 such creatures to a hex, so let's say we've got 8 on him - two in Close Combat, the others all in his Front hex (we'll assume they weren't able to manage a pincer attack - or rather that there used to be several more of them, and they died while getting into position). Combining Overwhelm with Setup Attack, as well as the fact that each monster is attacking twice, means by the time we reach the last monster the swashbuckler is going to be suffering some potentially-massive penalties to defense - he's at -5 on attack #4 (of 16) and beyond thanks to Coordinated Action, he's suffering a -1 for every two attacks thanks to Multiple Parries (at -7 for the final two hits), and as his defenses drop the Setups have a decent chance to start to accumulate, making it much less likely he'll avoid the final attack of the set (wherein the monsters "cash in" all that Setup, although even without it the swashbuckler's at -12 for the final two attacks). When his attack comes around, he's got the potential for all of his attacks to have to deal with multiple Parries per attack - particularly if you drop those first 4 attacks and have the monsters in CC use All Out Defense (Double). It can get even worse if you decide to adapt Defensive Feints to Setup Attacks (forcing the foe out of position to properly attack rather than defend). Of course, anyone's going to fall apart against something like that, right? Well, if your mages have any crowd-control or area of effect spells - and you require the beasts to stay in tight formation while moving (necessary for "Forming Up" anyway) - they should be able to tear the beasts apart... or at least delay them for a good while. The knight should have much better DR than the swashbuckler, so if the little monsters have low damage he can probably tank them rather effectively. This last bit would be useful for introducing the monsters - the swashbuckler has time to discover these aren't going to be a walk in the park, and is hopefully still able to retreat and let the knight tank them (and/or the mages handle them) before he runs out of HP and of dies horribly. A dungeon filled with such creatures will probably be enough to convince them they need to invest in more than "make the swashbuckler more awesome." You can even have some of the loot in the dungeon be more conducive to this - give the swashbuckler a magical saber (because it's not fair to leave him completely out), but give the mages some scrolls and/or grimoires of appropriate spells, and give the knight an axe that causes a small, possibly knockback-only AoE on impact (probably more in the form of a short cone, so that it doesn't hit him as well).

06-06-2014, 10:12 AM	#53
JMason Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Cockeysville, MD	Re: DF: Still can't challenge the Swashbuckler Update from last night's game: So I stocked my current dungeon and threw in what I thought might be some challenges, but due to the sort session time and some stuff I needed to cover with my players, we only had time for two combats that session. I should also point out that the Knight couldn't make it (and might be dropping out permanently) so it was just the SB, Cleric, and Wizard. Oh, and the Goblin Burglar hireling. The first was a set of 4 Acid Spiders (worthy) that were crawling around a caverns and got the drop on the players. This nearly killed the wizard (one attack brought him down to -HP), but the others avoided getting hit. Swashbuckler was hit once failing his dodge, but used Luck and came out unscathed. Then he single-handedly killed all four spiders: First Attack Feint that that he usually rolled ~15 under his 26 skill while the spider rolled around ~5 under. This made sure that the spider could only dodge on a 3-4. For his second attack he used Rapid Strike 4 attacks (doing about 10 cutting damage each). It was sort of ridicules, these guys had 4 DR and 26 HP, but were taken down each turn one by one. The other party members were able to keep the spiders off the SB, but didn't manage to hurt but one... for one point. Still, this wasn't meant as something balanced to challenge the SB, but it did punctuate that he is an utter combat monster. The next area was a bit of a different story. It was was filled with a waste deep pool... and several Erupting Slimes. The first shots came out of the dark pool and the players had no chance to dodge. This hit the cleric and SB. It took 4 turns for the slime to work its way to the SB, and as the combat wore on he was hit 2 more times. Due to his fear of the water the SB refused to get close, and only threw a few knives at the slimes. Due to the creatures defused nature the combat took a LOG time. Every stayed back, the casters throwing missile spells at the slimes that crept to the edge of the water. I made most of these fodder and they just went down, but a few were "worthy" and needed to be taken to 0 HP... which took quite some time. The group just didn't know what to do. This combat did end up causing the SB to take damage with the three hits that got him (he even went down to less than 1/3 HP, but was healed the next turn by the cleric). More importantly, it gave the others a chance to shine. The Wizard made good use his spells, and the cleric balanced between support and using his own attacks (sun bolt). --- So I have a few more things I want to try. There are other complications though: 1) The area they are in doesn't support (story-wise) the more exotic monsters... no divine servitors or whatever. 2) The Cleric is a Celestial, so any demon is going to attack him first. 3) I don't want to overplay the same trick. I'll see how things go next time.

06-06-2014, 10:17 AM	#54
Nereidalbel Join Date: May 2013 Location: Ellicott City, MD	Re: DF: Still can't challenge the Swashbuckler Which missile spells does your mage know, anyway? And is the Knight still ~50 points behind, assuming he doesn't drop out permanently? Working some sort of story in to get a class lens added to him can help him catch up in usefulness.

06-06-2014, 10:26 AM	#55
DangerousThing Join Date: Mar 2013	Re: DF: Still can't challenge the Swashbuckler On that note, is the Knight's player quitting because he feels useless? DF seem to be made for each party member to have a niche. An armored knight should be able to do something better than the SB, even at 250 points. I also feel that it is fair to give his character points to catch up to the rest. __________________ A little learning is a dangerous thing. Warning: Invertebrate Punnster - Spinelessly Unable to Resist a Pun Dangerous Thoughts, my blog about GURPS and life.

06-06-2014, 11:51 AM	#58
Nereidalbel Join Date: May 2013 Location: Ellicott City, MD	Re: DF: Still can't challenge the Swashbuckler Scheduling issues suck :/ It may be a good idea to encourage your mage to get Ambidexterity, DWA: Innate Attack, and get his Flame Jet skill high enough for 0 cost sustain. Twin flamethrowers will make him just dangerous enough to compete with the SB on damage.

06-06-2014, 04:06 PM	#60
Novembermike Join Date: Apr 2011	Re: DF: Still can't challenge the Swashbuckler Yeah, get rid of that Rapid Strikes rule. It's ok if everyone is building that sort of character and it's a Wuxia style game but DF has always been at least a little more realistic than Wuxia stuff and the other classes aren't really designed to compete with that. I'd maybe allow Trained By a Master to give him multiple extra strikes but at the full penalty.