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Old 12-18-2018, 01:12 AM   #11
Dalillama
 
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Default Re: Spear vs Sword

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Originally Posted by jason taylor View Post
Wouldn't someone in real life who could afford the quality of ironmongery to have eighteen inches of metal that would not shatter because of a minor flaw, be able to afford a decent trainer too?
Yes, but swords were still often largely a status symbol; it shows you're rich enough to afford that kinda thing. I would guess that they're better for storming fortified towers too (or defending them).
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Old 12-18-2018, 01:18 AM   #12
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Default Re: Spear vs Sword

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Originally Posted by jason taylor View Post
Wouldn't someone in real life who could afford the quality of ironmongery to have eighteen inches of metal that would not shatter because of a minor flaw, be able to afford a decent trainer too?
Subject to the difficulty of identifying who is actually good, an the amount of time they are willing/able to spend, yes.
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Old 12-18-2018, 02:11 AM   #13
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Default Re: Spear vs Sword

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Originally Posted by Lord Azagthoth View Post
Most important for spear fighter is that you learn techniques so you don;t need a Ready manuever to siwtch the Reach.
Well, the key one for 1v1 duelling is probably the Form Mastery perk, so you can attack as a spear, and then drop back to Staff for defence (and thus be able to claim that lovely +2 Parry bonus, and also be able to switch Reach freely).
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Old 12-18-2018, 06:40 AM   #14
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Default Re: Spear vs Sword

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
Most of the reasons why spears are better than swords relate to things like technique, formation fighting, and reach. Many RPGs don't have the mechanics to take them into account. GURPS does a better job than most.
Turn-based tactical RPGs like Disgaea do give the higher range (Etna's spear had 2, Laharl's sword had 1, when you start). Since they could move a limited number of square per turn, this did give a tactical advantage in reaching enemies faster, and was also useful in attacking across 1-square chasms. There's also a formation advantage since you can do combos with any of your units who are in range to do a melee attack.

Too bad spears fall behind in weapon class-based special moves, only swords/fists could do 9-square area attacks later on making them the most suitable for grinding the Cave of Ordeals. The ultimate sword Muramasa was also far superior to the ultimate spear Longinus, including having a longer range...

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
Well, the key one for 1v1 duelling is probably the Form Mastery perk, so you can attack as a spear, and then drop back to Staff for defence (and thus be able to claim that lovely +2 Parry bonus, and also be able to switch Reach freely).
The requirement of having a longer reach weapon than your opponent for doing a Wait > Stop Thrust doesn't hurt either. Of course a sword guy can avoid giving you a damage bonus by only advancing 1 yard at a time once he gets in range of your spear... so that's largely a benefit to "holding the line" in formations.
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Old 12-18-2018, 06:44 AM   #15
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Default Re: Spear vs Sword

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post

Well, the key one for 1v1 duelling is probably the Form Mastery perk, so you can attack as a spear, and then drop back to Staff for defence (and thus be able to claim that lovely +2 Parry bonus, and also be able to switch Reach freely).
Yes.



There's a legion of spear-fighting styles in GURPS Martial Arts. The relevant features for those using spears alone (and hence dueling) rather than with shields (and hence fighting in formation) are Staff and Spear skill (one easily bought up from the other), and the perks Form Mastery (for fluid Spear/Staff transitions) and Grip Mastery (for free reach changes); the spearman holding a spear in two hands this way will have not only the advantage of reach but also the benefits of Parrying with Two-Handed Weapons (Martial Arts, p. 123). Their swordsman foe will have Shield and a sword skill, and probably Fast-Draw (Sword), so the investment in points is roughly equal; the swordsman equipped this way will have the advantages of a Defense Bonus and a block.

Once you move to formation fighting, the spearman will have Spear and Shield skill, and the perk Shield-Wall Training (allowing convenient use of the large shield); the spearman will be using a long spear which has reach 2, 3* even in one hand, with the benefit of a large shield for DB 3 and a block. The swordsman won't change that much. This puts the advantage rather solidly in the court of the spearman, who has reach and a big DB. Of course, that works well only if you have more spearmen on both sides of you, and behind you, and so on. What swordsman enjoy is the ability to move fluidly between true formations and loose skirmish lines, which isn't surprising . . . historically, they were used (especially by the Spanish) for this exact reason.

The real-world problem (if you could call it that) is that dueling isn't formation fighting. The game-mechanical problem is that it takes much more player knowledge for the spear to prevail, as it involves making tactical choices that don't flow automatically from character abilities . . . if you don't know to attack and then step, to retreat on the defense, etc. (all as Anthony pointed out), you'll be hosed by a swordsman, whose player just has to do the intuitive "I run in swinging!"

There's also a game-mechanical issue with how GURPS lets swung swords penetrate armor better than thrust spears, which I personally favor resolving not by adding (0.5) to sword swings or by introducing the complication of "edge protection," but by adding (2) to spear thrusts, as spearheads were designed to pierce armor – so much so that they were a valuable commodity, stored without shafts between wars, possession in bulk of which was viewed much as keeping crates of assault rifles in your basement today.
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Old 12-18-2018, 06:48 AM   #16
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Default Re: Spear vs Sword

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Of course a sword guy can avoid giving you a damage bonus by only advancing 1 yard at a time once he gets in range of your spear...
But if he does, he's still playing to your strengths, because you can retreat once he attacks, and then strike and step back, and now he's too far away to attack you . . . so if he approaches at a slow crawl, he'll always be on the wrong end of a reach difference. In the video, the swordsmen who charged in, blocking, were probably doing the smart thing. The ones who didn't have a clue what to do with their shield got stopped by spear thrusts.
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Old 12-18-2018, 10:24 AM   #17
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In the video, the swordsmen who charged in, blocking, were probably doing the smart thing.
It's quite possible the right thing to do is a shield rush. This isn't the sort of tactic much used by simulators, though, as it's likely to result in injuries.
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Old 12-18-2018, 11:27 AM   #18
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It's quite possible the right thing to do is a shield rush. This isn't the sort of tactic much used by simulators, though, as it's likely to result in injuries.
Yeah. Due to what I do for a living, I get invited to events where I've seen a lot of simulated combat, some of it by people who pursue "historical martial arts." One of the things they regularly tell me is that real fights would involve a lot more shield rushes, hooking (of people, with sharp points), tripping, shield bashes, pommel strikes, punching, grabbing, strangling, wrestling in the mud, being brutally trampled, and pulling knives to shiv people a few dozen times at close range, but that this stuff ranges from "only a good idea among well-trained martial artists in real armor" to "not a good idea unless you actually want to maim or kill someone." So there's pretty much zero understanding about how a real fight would look with ALL of that stuff (and more besides) permitted, though there's plenty of theorizing and demonstrating just one or two of those things.

Even something as simple as armor penetration is a puzzle. Fairly serious groups that train with steel against steel, in armor, still rely on what amounts to an honor system. It may well be inaccurate. Nobody much practices full-powered spear thrusts to breastplates with live people inside during a raging melee where people are turning, running, parrying, etc. Most of the "facts" we have on injury come from centuries-old chronicles, well-laced with dramatic license, and from skeletons with holes in them, who rarely get up and talk about what they were wearing when they were killed.

It's interesting to note that there are theories that for every person killed on his feet by a spear or sword, you probably have one or two trampled or suffocated in mud, and another guy stunned by a fall or nonlethal blow and ended by a hasty thrust of a knife or the spike on the butt of a spear or polearm. Sort of like how in the popular imagination, people in shooting wars are killed by rifle fire, but most actually get killed by support weapons (mainly machine guns and artillery).
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Old 12-18-2018, 11:45 AM   #19
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Default Re: Spear vs Sword

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
It's quite possible the right thing to do is a shield rush. This isn't the sort of tactic much used by simulators, though, as it's likely to result in injuries.
Aye this wasn't real combat, it was LARPing.
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Old 12-18-2018, 12:05 PM   #20
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Default Re: Spear vs Sword

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It's quite possible the right thing to do is a shield rush.
It's quite possible that the right way to deal with spearmen without shields is to kill them at range with bows.

Two-handed Spear is popular with non-battlefield users like martial artists and re-enactors (perhaps because it's easier than Spear and Shield) but it wasn't all that common historically among soldiers.

The other issue that misses getting addressed is which weapon do you invest time and energy in training on. The answer is probably "the best weapon I can carry most of the time.". There were a pretty fair number of periods of history when at least some people could walk around wearing a sword as a usual thing. So when an unexpected self-defense problem come supo you can jsut draw your sword instead of asking "Would you lads mind not starting this affray until I can nip home and get me spear?".
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