[THAUM] Threshold mage tweaks?

[The Bearded One]

I'm running a fairly low power fantasy game (100 cp at the moment) in which the clerics use the standard Fatigue and ER-based magic system, and the wizards use the Threshold (tally & recovery) system from Thaumatology. The wizard in my game has tally 36 and recovery 12 and a decent array of spells specializing in Earth and Water colleges with a smattering of other spells here and there.

According to the RAW, Threshold mages get their recovery once per day. I have interpreted this to mean that they get that much tally back when they sleep at night (or whenever).

Is that the only way? Would it be possible or beneficial for a mage with recovery 12 to get back one point every 2 hours? Or in some other way?

What about the ability to buy Regeneration (Tally only) in order to recover tally faster than ordinarily possible? Should this be a purchase-able ability after game start?

What other modifications to the Threshold magic system have people tried?

-- The Bearded One

[Kazander]

Originally Posted by The Bearded One

Is that the only way? Would it be possible or beneficial for a mage with recovery 12 to get back one point every 2 hours? Or in some other way?

What about the ability to buy Regeneration (Tally only) in order to recover tally faster than ordinarily possible? Should this be a purchase-able ability after game start?

What other modifications to the Threshold magic system have people tried?

-- The Bearded One

I've allowed gradual recovery when the players are getting desperate; it harms nothing.

I personally prefer to use the Varying Capabilities option, to have a base Threshold of 16 and Recovery of 15 (instead of 30/8) so that most of my capabilities are recovered every day.

With the slow recovery inherent in the Threshold based magic system, I don't think I'd allow the Regeneration advantage to be bought for Threshold only. It works with the default Fatigue based system, but it's likely to be overpowering with Threshold based magic. There'd be little point in having any base Recovery Rate--might as well have 120/2!

[wellspring]

I don't see any harm in spreading the total amount gained over the day. All at once certainly can have flavor advantages, depending on the system. Much of it depends on the pace of play you're looking for.

Thaumatology points out that when you recover large amounts of tally back at once (like 30 points every full moon), then you will have some really wild nights right before "recovery day" because the attitude is use it or lose it. And some serious caution right afterwards, since jacking up your tally that early leaves you with no leeway if you need to cast later in the month.

The other extreme, one point per two hours (assuming recovery rate of 12/day), makes wizards more likely to cast minor spells more casually through the day.

One possibility I haven't tried is variable tally recovery. That is, you regain 1 point per 3 hours (just for the sake of the argument), but get bonus tally back at certain times of day (or reduced or no recovery at others). If everyone gets 5 free tally back on the night of the full moon or solstice/halloween/arbor day/whatever, then you get some casual casting and some Wizards Gone Wild nights as well.

As long as the typical regen rate lines up, I don't think it would do any harm, and it's easy to calculate in Excel, but I imagine it would be a pain to use in practice at the gaming table.

[Refplace]

The main issue I see with a more incremental recovery time is extra book keeping. I would not allow regeneration for tally, instead I use the enhancements for Recovery, Increased Tally and possibly Safer Excess from Thaumatology to customize mages.

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by The Bearded One

According to the RAW, Threshold mages get their recovery once per day. I have interpreted this to mean that they get that much tally back when they sleep at night (or whenever).

Campaign dependent. It may be personal, it may be inherited, it may be universal, etc ... but, yes, all at once.

Would it be possible or beneficial for a mage with recovery 12 to get back one point every 2 hours?

Gradual recovery is nice, as it lets them avoid blowing their wad and then being unable to do anything else for the rest of the day.

What about the ability to buy Regeneration (Tally only) in order to recover tally faster than ordinarily possible? Should this be a purchase-able ability after game start?

Erm. No. Oh gods, no. Well, technically, if you're the GM, you could approve it ... but I really wouldn't suggest it. Not for an individual. There already exists advantages and disadvantages to modify Tally Threshold and Tally Recovery for individuals.

If its' a campaign option that every caster has? Tis fine.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by The Bearded One

Is that the only way? Would it be possible or beneficial for a mage with recovery 12 to get back one point every 2 hours? Or in some other way?

What about the ability to buy Regeneration (Tally only) in order to recover tally faster than ordinarily possible? Should this be a purchase-able ability after game start?

What other modifications to the Threshold magic system have people tried?

The problem with trickle recovery of Tally is the extra bookkeeping. As far as I know that's the only problem.

I don't think your world needs Regeneration (Tally Only), because there is already a trait in GURPS Thaumatology that speeds up regeneration. And Tally doesn't work like Fatigue so it's not clear to me that Tally and Tally cost should scale the same way as FP and FP cost.

As for whether characters can acquire faster Tally recovery after gamestart, that's a worldbuilding issue, dependent upon the metaphysics that you decided upon, back when you created the world, before the campaign started. It's similar to Magery for GURPS Magic. In some worlds, Magery can be acquired or improved during a character's lifetime. In other worlds, Magery is an inborn trait that cannot be improved.

As for modification to the Threshold/Tally system, the most obvious one seems to me to take one or several of the traits that affect Threshold magic (I forget what they're called) and purchasing them with a Gadget Limitation.

Even if inborn Threshold-pertinent traits cannot be acquired after birth, it makes sense that in a subset of world, the people who live in those worlds can create objects that enhance their ability to work magic, even if in most of the worlds in this subset, they cannot grant the ability to work magic in the first place but only improve the ability if it is already there.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

Campaign dependent. It may be personal, it may be inherited, it may be universal, etc ... but, yes, all at once.

Actually, it's not campaign-depedent, but world-dependent.

You can have multiple campaigns taking place in the same world, one after another (or in parallel, with a different set of players for each), but since the campaigns take place in the same world, the metaphysics are the same, and so are consistent from campaign to campaign.

So it's a decision that is made when the world is built, when the world is initially created, before the first campaign set in that world begins. A decision made by whoever it is that doe the worldbuilding. Usually - but not always - the GM.



Of course you can have the metaphysics of a world change, but that means you are obligated to do a lot of very intense thinking, about what the effect of those changes will be on the many millions of people who live in the world. And you need to decide whether the changes are gradual or abrupt.

I think it's a bad idea, because of all the extra work needed, but if you do so, it's easier to have the change take place between campaigns, e.g. somewhen in the span of time from one campaign ends to the next campaign begins, although having the change take place during a campaign is of course extremely rich in dramatic potential.

Gradual change can be quantified, so that if you know the initial laws of metaphysics, e.g. certain values for Recovery and Threshold and a specific Tally Excess Consequence Table, and you know the final laws of metaphysics, once the change is done happening, different values for Recovery and Threshold and perhaps a different Tally Excess Consequence Table, you can then interpolate 1-3 intermediate states. That's easy to do for numerical values, but requires a bit more work for tables you have to roll on. Then the change is no longer observably gradual, but takes place in jumps that are hopefully smooth enough to not be too jarring (and the players must be cooperative and firewall the abruptness of the change into an in-character perception of gradual change).

[Grouchy Chris]

Originally Posted by The Bearded One

According to the RAW, Threshold mages get their recovery once per day. I have interpreted this to mean that they get that much tally back when they sleep at night (or whenever).

Is that the only way? Would it be possible or beneficial for a mage with recovery 12 to get back one point every 2 hours? Or in some other way?

In my campaign, I rule that it's a gradual recovery while you sleep. A wizard with recovery 8 gets one point per hour. Since that's what my only wizard PC has, and he usually gets a full night's sleep, it's not a bookkeeping problem.

What about the ability to buy Regeneration (Tally only) in order to recover tally faster than ordinarily possible? Should this be a purchase-able ability after game start?

I wouldn't do that. The whole point of Threshold is that you're moving from a system that lets you do many small spells to one that lets you do a few big ones. Regeneration (Tally only) would let them do both. At the power level of the rest of my PCs, there's not room for a wizard that powerful. If your game has 500-point PCs, though, maybe it would work.

What other modifications to the Threshold magic system have people tried?

I changed Tally from a flat 30 to Will + Thaumatology.

[CousinX]

Originally Posted by The Bearded One

What other modifications to the Threshold magic system have people tried?

I generally agree with what others have said -- gradual recovery is no real problem, Rapid Magical Recovery is preferable to Regeneration (Threshold), etc.

I used a few mods to Threshold Magic back in 3e that I liked pretty well, and were popular with players... I haven't tried them in 4e yet, so they might need a bit of tweaking.

Threshold = IQ x Magery ... this was with Magery capped at 3, so the numbers didn't get out of control, but with Magery 4+ it could get a little crazy.

Recovery is done through sleep (every 2 hours recover points equal to Magery level) or through use of the Meditation skill (each hour recovers Margin of Success x Magery level points; failure recovers nothing, critical failure "shorts out" recovery until the mage has had 8 hours of sleep).