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Old 06-28-2007, 09:26 PM   #91
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agemegos
It was. At the end of the First Age the Valar sent an army of Vanyar and faithful Noldor to crush Morgoth {led by a Maia (Eönwe), reinforced by eagles and Eärendil, and perhaps stiffened with an unknown number of Maiar}. They slaughtered balrogs and dragons. The fighting was so severe that Beleriand was destroyed, broken, and plunged into the sea, and the Calaquendi won. How overpowering do you want?
Well, I know that. I was mainly talking from the "Unseen" power prospective. Having an army of ten thousand Elves who all can perform miraculous exorcisms is straining it IMO. No doubt they came with incredible discipline, martial prowess, and finely wrought equipment and the like, with the light of Aman in their eyes. And I had certainly thought a fair number of Maia came with the host.
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Old 06-28-2007, 09:46 PM   #92
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

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Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi
True, the song of power is magic. How could I forget about that? And Beorn turning into a bear...
But Luthien had weird powers, she was half Maia. I would not use her as a yardstick for what elves in general are capable of.
Yeah, there is actually a considerable amount of magical stuff that goes on that needs to be considered in a chapter on magic in Middle-earth. I began a run down of a few items this afternoon. Assuming one it to go with a Powers based magic "system" I guess one would have to start with a list of powers to create. I don't really know how many there would be, but my initial feeling is that the list would feel a bit constraining. But I cannot say for certain. But the thing is, Gandalf's spells on the door in Moria, Beorn's shape changing, and the elven craft all appear to work magic in different ways.

I had read hedge magic before, and I think that it could serve as a basis for "Elven Art".
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Old 06-28-2007, 11:26 PM   #93
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavynn
Well, I know that. I was mainly talking from the "Unseen" power prospective. Having an army of ten thousand Elves who all can perform miraculous exorcisms is straining it IMO. No doubt they came with incredible discipline, martial prowess, and finely wrought equipment and the like, with the light of Aman in their eyes. And I had certainly thought a fair number of Maia came with the host.
But the Calaquendi lens would be balanced by a tremendous sense of duty, don't you think? The level of wisdom that accompanies the power of living in that light would generally preclude the sort of interference and imbalance you'd worry about in a gaming environment; otherwise, it wouldn't have been such a big deal when the Noldor defied the Valar and went to war, and The War of Wrath wouldn't have spawned stories still being told thousands of years later. I think the Calaquendi really were that big a deal.

It sounds like you're holding off on moral (as opposed to physical) limitations on Calaquendi behavior to allow for the possibility of, say, the individual Vanya NPC who behaves badly. But GURPS already allows that possibility. A racial duty, sense of duty, etc can be bought off like any disad; it doesn't mean that 100% of the population must be that way. So you can go ahead and tell it like it (mostly) was!
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Old 06-29-2007, 12:26 AM   #94
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi
As for strength... Tolkien once wrote (in Letters you can read it) of his irritation that people kept thinking that Legolas is girly. He wrote that legolas is strong and graceful, tall and lithe as a young willow, and not at all girly. Many elves were strong and deadly warriors. Being slender hasn't got a thing to do with being strong. And as for physical labor... they did all sorts of things. Hunting, hiking, smithing swords and armor, fighting with swords and bows and axes, mining and quarrying, carving stuff, climbing trees, building boats and ships, building huge buildings made of stone blocks...also several individuals such as Beleg and Angrod are described specifically as being very strong.
Agreed. Plus, once you've settled on them being taller than Men, slender or not, you're pretty much committed to them being stronger. Mass scales exponentially while height scales linearly: A 6'7" guy who weighs less than other 6'7" guys will still have leverage and muscle mass well beyond the average 5'9" human norm.
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Old 06-30-2007, 12:17 PM   #95
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

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Originally Posted by Agemegos
Well, actually mass scales as a cubic, not an exponential.
Heh. I couldn't remember if it was cubed or squared, so I figured "exponentially" would cover either an exponent of 2 or an exponent of 3!

Quote:
Indeed. And (crucially) he will have large muscle cross-section, which is what strength depends on. ... Muscle cross-section would go as height cubed if tall people were wide in proportion, but generally they are not. The basis of using body mass index is that people tend in fact to be broad only in proportion to the square root of their height (ie. tall people are usually narrow, short people are usually broad).

The normal man of 5'10 weighs 150 lb and has a BMI of 21.5. If you scaled him up to 6'7" and kept him in proportion you'd have a man of 216 lb with a BMI of 24.4. By the square-cube law, this man would be 27% stronger and 44% heavier.
I was imagining even more of a difference, but then I was mentally comparing a slim NBA forward with the average schmoe, which is dumb. So it looks like a question of how tall and how slender and whether the difference merits a full point of GURPS ST.

ICE used to stat them as really tall, an average of something like 6'3" / 6'7" / 6'9" for Avari / Sindar / Noldor, but that ain't canon. Vaevictis Asmadi, does PoME or anything else in History of Middle-Earth say how it is? (Apart from ST calculation, I'd want to see them "accurately" in my mind while playing one.)
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Old 06-30-2007, 05:32 PM   #96
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavynn
Appearance (Attractive [4] (B.21)
Appearance Attractive seems somewhat low. Very Beautiful/Handsome [16] seems more like the right level; I don’t imagine many mortals can rival the appearance of the average elf. It doesn’t leave them much variation in level of appearance, but I’m not sure they need to have a wide range.
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Old 06-30-2007, 08:33 PM   #97
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agemegos
Sadly, the term 'exponential' is pre-empted by a different function: one in which the independent variable appears as the exponent, rather than appearing with an exponent. [/PART I UNDERSTOOD]
-- snip of what my Math Fu is inadequate to gronk ---
[IMPLICATION THAT I ALSO UNDERSTOOD] So in a sense, exponential growth is faster than any possible polynomial growth. What ever power you raise x to, an exponential function of x will (eventually) increase faster.
Thanks for taking the time to explain it, Agemegos, but I'm afraid the particulars would need even further explanation for me. The overall point I get, though, and thanks. (Believe it or not, the possibility that the term "exponentially" might refer to some specialized function did occur briefly, but it was followed swiftly by the old Theodoric of York "Naaaaaaahhhhh!")

Now if only you could tell me how tall and how slender those bloody elves were...
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Old 07-01-2007, 04:09 PM   #98
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavynn
How big do you want big to big? DX 12? DX 14? DX 16? I think you will find a tremendous amount of disagreement on the board about just what a big bonus to DX would be. To some, even a +1 in GURPS goes a long way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basic p.14
10: Average. Most humans get by just fine with a score of 10!
11 or 12: Above average. These scores are superior, but within the human norm.
13 or 14: Exceptional. Such an attribute is immediately apparent – as bulging muscles, feline grace, witty dialog, or glowing health - to those who meet you.
15 or more: Amazing. An attribute this high draws constant comment and probably guides your career choices.
DX13, HT13; Immediately apparent Grace and Glowing health sound like a good base for elves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavynn
The sleep thing I admit is one thing that still needs to be hammered out. I agree elves sleep some, so just "No Sleep" is not 100% accurate. However, IDHMBWM but for some reason I remember several levels of less sleep night adding up right either. It was one of the rare instances the GURPS mechanics were not doing exactly what I wanted.
Reduced Sleep for 4th Ed
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:04 PM   #99
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

Thread Necro, because I love a forum that allows that. Why make a new thread?

BTW, did Agemegos and all his posts evaporate or something?

So I still haven't read every reply in this thread, but I wanted to post my updated templates since it's been a long time, and I've done a ton of research and adjustment. I'd love feedback, and hopefully Gavynn you'll find these interesting too.

I've been convinced about Elves not getting scars, by another fan who pointed out that otherwise a 1000-year old elf would become a walking mass of scar tissue ...

The height I gave them is based off of, I believe "Of Dwarves and Men", specifying Noldor and Numenoreans being on average 7' tall!

I actually have templates in progress for Ents, Eagles, Dwarves, Numenoreans, Hobbits, Druedain, Orcs, etc. But since this is a thread about Elves:

** = A racial average, but the trait can be increased or decreased for individuals. (implicit for all attributes)

Elf [??]
SM 0, Light Build
DX +4 [80]
ST +?? []
HT +10?? []
Will +?? []
Basic Speed +?? []
Acute Hearing 1** [2]
Appearance (Attractive)** [4] (this is more the usual minimum than the average)
Acute Vision 3** [6]
Complete Healing
Eidetic Memory [5]
Fit** [5]
Immunity to Sickness [15]
High Pain Threshold** [10]
Less Sleep 6** [12]
Night Vision 7** [7] (those born in Middle-earth before the Sun likely to have 8 or even 9)
Reduced Consumption 1** [2]
Silence 3 [15]
Talent: Animal Friend 1** [5] (this is more the usual minimum than the average)
Telescopic Vision ??**
Temperature Tolerance (??)**
Unaging []
Very Rapid Healing** []
Voice [10]
Ambidextrous Writer [1]
Sanitized Metabolism [1]
Fading, The [0]
Late Maturation* [0] (physically mature at about 50 solar years, full-grown as late as 100 solar years)
Sleeps with eyes open [0]
Dislikes Change [-1]
Light Walk (H) DX-?? [??]-7 [??]
Taboo Traits: HT 6 or less, FP 6 or less; Addiction, Alcoholism, Bad Sight, Colorblindness, Dyslexia, Epilepsy, Fat, Klutz, Lecherousness, Motion Sickness, Noisy, Sleepwalker, Slow Healing, Terminally Ill, Unfit, Very Fat; Horrible Hangovers; Dreaming
Allowed/Mundane traits: Mind Probe (Ósanwë, Universal), Ósanwë Talent, Plant Empathy, Mind Reading (Ósanwë, Universal), Telesend (Ósanwë, Universal), Telesend (Ósanwë, Broadcast, Sound-Based, Universal), Speak With Animals (or Birds only), Speak With Plants (or Trees only), Very Rapid Healing
(Ambidextrous, Animal Friend, Gifted Artist, Musical Ability, Perfect Balance, and Wordwright and are quite common but not necessarily universal -- Musical Ability especially is very common in the Third Clan. Photographic Memory, Visualization, and Flashbacks (Mild) may also be common. An Elf who has borne or sired children and does not want to have any more becomes permanently Sterile, by the action of their spirit.)
(prejudice against Dwarves is specific to the western Elves, particularly Sindar and Nandor, after the fall of Doriath. it is less common among Noldor and rare among Avari. but Avari, especially those of the Second Clan (related to the Noldor) are often friendly with Dwarves but prejudiced against Eldar.)


Calaquendë lens [??]
male average height 6’7”-7’5”, female average 6’4”-7’2”
HT +?? [??]
Language Talent** [10]
Racial Reputation (reverent and wise people of Aman, +3, most Edain and some Moriquendi, sometimes) [3]
See the Unseen [15] (this is a type of See Invisible)
Very Fit [+10]
Code of Honor (Eldarin) [-10]
Sea-Longing [-??] (I have no idea how to represent this. quirk?)
Light of Aman [-1] (slight glow, usually visible only close-up, usually doesn’t impact stealth)
(In Middle-earth, almost all Calaquendi are Noldorin Exiles, except during the War of Wrath; see below. When combining lenses, HT bonuses and Reputation do not stack.)


Etyangoldo (Noldorin Exile) lens [??]
male average height 6’7”-7’5”, female average 6’4”-7’2”
ST +1 [10]
HT +?? [??]
Racial Reputation (reverent and wise people of Aman, +3, most Edain and some Moriquendi, sometimes) [3]
Talent [5+] (at least 1 level of Artificer, Gifted Artist, Talented Artisan, Wordwright, Musical Ability, or Virtuoso)
Code of Honor (Eldarin) [-10]
Sea-Longing [-??]
Chauvinism** [-1]
Light of Aman [-1] (slight glow, usually visible only close-up, usually doesn’t impact stealth)
(This lens applies to the exiled Calaquendi and to all of their elven descendants. Chauvinism, especially toward Mortals and Avari, is common and sometimes at the level of full-blown Intolerance, but some individuals aren’t chauvinist. Intolerance of Dwarves is not common. There is some Chauvinism and even occasional Intolerance between the House of Fëanor and the other two Houses of the Noldor.)
(During the First Age all Exiles are subject to Divine Curse (Doom of the Noldor) [-?? points].)
(Any Elda who personally survived crossing the Helkaraxë had or gained more Weather-Hardiness than the average Elf.)

Etyangoldo + Calaquendë: these lenses overlap somewhat. together they cost [??]


Sinda lens [??]
male average height 6’3”-7’1”, female average 6’-6’10”
Code of Honor (Eldarin) [-10]
(Some Falathrim also have Sea-Longing. Intolerance (Dwarves) [-5] is nearly universal after the first fall of Doriath. Chauvinism or Intolerance towards Mortals and/or the Noldor is common, particularly in the First Age.)


Nando (Green or Silvan Elf) lens [??]
male average height 6’3”-7’1”, female average 6’-6’10”
Code of Honor (Eldarin)** [-10]
(Intolerance (Dwarves) [-5] is nearly universal after the first fall of Doriath (in Ossiriand) and after the end of the First Age (east of the Eryd Luin). Chauvinism towards Mortals and/or the Noldor isn’t uncommon.) Sea-Longing probably developed among Elves at the Mouths of Anduin.)


Avar lens [??]
male average height 6’3”-7’1”, female average 6’-6’10”


Faded Elf [??] (or is it just impossible to make a playable template?)
no FP trait [0] (does not use FP, like a machine)
no ST trait [-100]
HT +?? []
Basic Speed +?? []
HP 1* [2]
Will +?? []
Appearance (Attractive)** [4] (this is more the usual minimum than the average)
Acute Vision 3** [6]
Doesn’t Breathe [20]
Doesn’t Eat or Drink [10]
Eidetic Memory [5]
High Pain Threshhold** [10]
Immunity to Heat and Cold [30]
Immunity to Metabolic Hazards [30]
Injury Tolerance (Diffuse) [100]
Insubstantiality (Always On, Cosmic) [80] (your body exists only in your memory)
Less Sleep (??)** []
Mind Reading (Ósanwë, Universal) 39
Night Vision 7** [ 7]
Silence ??* (total silence) []
Telescopic Vision ??** []
Telesend (Ósanwë, Universal) 39
Talent: Animal Friend 1* [5]
Unaging []
Unkillable 3* [150]
Unseen (Usually On) [38]
Mute [-25] (communicates only by ósanwë) (or are they really mute? if they can become visible can they become audible, or is visibility already telepathic?)
No Manipulators [-50]
No Sense of Smell/Taste [-5]
Numb [-20]
Dislikes Change [-1]
Sterile [0]
Taboo Traits: As Elf, plus: ST
Allowed/Mundane Traits: As Elf.
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Last edited by Vaevictis Asmadi; 03-25-2013 at 07:18 PM.
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:14 PM   #100
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

And because I don't think I can fit them on one page:


Ambidextrous Writer [1]
You can write legibly and clearly with either hand.

Complete Healing []
cannot suffer permanently crippling wounds unless a body part is actually severed. don’t get scars except from unusually bad wounds (poisoned, ?? or more HP in one blow, inflicted by an Úmaia, severed/removed part, or designed to cause a scar

See the Unseen [15]
This is a type of See Invisible. You can see the Unseen and intangible: wraiths, faded Elves, the light of a living person’s fëa, unhoused fëar, and other things normally invisible to tangible, substantial senses. This also extends to their effects on the world, probably certain works by Ainur, and likely the Strait Road to the True West. It does not normally include Rings of Power if their bearer is concealing them.

Talent: Mariner [5/lv]
Crewman/TL, Knot-Tying, Navigation/TL, Shiphandling/TL, Weather Sense/Meteorology/TL. Reaction bonus: passengers and fellow crew, past and present.

Talent: Talented Artisan [10/lv]
Instead of fixed bonuses, this gives a bonus to any 12 of: Artist, Carpentry, Fiber Crafts, Knot-Tying, Masonry, Leatherworking, Sewing, any craft Professional Skill (Basketmaker, Bellfounder, Bookbinder, Cooper, Farrier, Glassblower, Glazier, Lampwright, Roper/Ropemaker, Shoemaker, Tailor, Tanner, Wheelwright). When creating your character, choose 12 skills from this list and write them on your character sheet after Talented Artisan. Reaction bonus: anyone you do work for.

Talent: Virtuoso [5/lv]
Gives bonuses to Dancing, Group Performance, Performance, and Singing. Reaction bonus: anyone watching, listening to, or critiquing your work.

Talent: Wordwright [5/lv]
Gives bonuses to Fast-Talk, Poetry, Public Speaking, Singing, and Writing. Reaction bonus: anyone listening to, reading, or critiquing your work, but rarely the victims of malicious or deceptive Fast-Talk.

Unseen
This is Invisibility (Except to the Unseen, -10%). If the advantage is Unusally On or Switchable, turning it “off” only makes the character temporarily visible to Seen (substantial) eyes, and does not make them invisible to Unseen eyes.

Code of Honor (Eldarin) [-10]
True Eldar never use poisons or torture, or kill enemies who surrender or ask for mercy, even when such actions seem necessary for self-defense -- not even when hunting animals or fighting servants of the Dark Lord. Do not murder or steal except in a just war or for self-defense (to most Eldar, any kind of kinslaying war against Elves or allied Men is unthinkable). This code is shared by all Elves of the Great March, including Nandor, and by many or most Silvan Elves. During the late First Age it was also generally adopted by the Edain and maintained by the Faithful in Númenor and the Dúnedain in exile.

Divine Curse (Doom of the Noldor) []
(this is a combination of prophecy, the wrath of the Valar, the feud of the royal houses, and the inevitable results of trying to wage war against Morgoth)

Fading, The [0 or -1]
Elves are not literally “immortal,” as Men believe. They age exceedingly slowly as their spirits “consume” their flesh. They begin to make aging rolls at 8279 years (9.582x144x6) repeated every 144 years, accelerating at 16558 (9.582x123) to every 24 years, and at 33115 (9.582x123x2) to every 9 years. Calaquendi get the benefit of Longevity (which costs no points). Only ST (not HP) and FP (not HT) are rolled. A female Elf must also make two rolls each for ST, FP, and HT each time she gives birth. Loss of attributes is eventually accompanied by reduced need for food and water. When either ST or FP hits 0, the body has become only a memory; see the Faded Elf template. The Fading is usually a feature, and even for a very long-term campaign with already extremely old Elves is a quirk at most.

Ósanwë
This is the Arda equivalent of the Telepathy Power. I wrote it up as a psi power using Basic Set rules, after reading "Osanwe-kenta" (published in one of the linguistic journals which I bought) The write-up is long but I plan to ask for feedback on it eventually.
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Last edited by Vaevictis Asmadi; 03-25-2013 at 07:20 PM.
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