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Old 02-12-2020, 08:38 PM   #21
Dichotomy
 
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Default Re: Modular attributes?

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
So, let us take a look at the Modular Ability, which we will call Flexible Attribute. Here is an example:

Flexible Attribute (100, 100, 100; Costs FP, 10 FP, -50%; Immediate Preparation Required, 8 hours, -90%; Physical and Mental, +100%; Psychic, -10%; Requires IQ roll, -10%; Take Extra Time 2, -20%) [183]. Notes: After 8 hours of preparation, the user must make an IQ roll and spend 10 FP before immediately allocating their CPs, taking four seconds per CP.

Yes, it would take three days to complete allocate their points, but that is not really important, as they will have gained 300 CP of attributes for 183 CP.
But no one is proposing adding costs fp, takes extra time, etc. Plus this doesn't represent what I want to represent at all. It's a racial ability, it comes as a template.

yes modular abilites can be min maxed, but I'm not seeing what any of what you said has to do with the racial I'm proposing.

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Originally Posted by zoncxs View Post
I like the name!

Actually, since we want to be able to have any combination, but limit it all to one cap (lets go with 40pts as OP suggested), then we could use cosmic modular abilities instead.

Flexible Attribute (40; Costs FP, 6 FP, -30%; Immediate Preparation Required, 5* hours, -80%; Physical and Mental, +100%; Limited, attributes only, -30%; Limited Use, 1 per day, -40%) [80].

After 5* hours the user can allocate up to 40 cp to DX ST HT an IQ. This is very tiring, costing 6 FP to attempt, per attempt and can only be attempted once per day.


*There is nothing in any books for any other time frame, but with 1hr being 75 and 8 being 90 I decided that 5hr being 80 is fair.
I quite like that, but that seems to cover 40 points worth of any attribute, skill, and advantage, which is definitely WAY more than I was shooting for as a racial.
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Old 02-12-2020, 09:13 PM   #22
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Default Re: Modular attributes?

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
I think that using Cosmic Powers would be fair, considering that attributes impact so much. Traited-Limited (Attribute) would only be worth -10% though, since it is equivalent to Advantages Only (-10%) or Skills Only (-10%).
attributes is a sub category of advantages only, more specifically a sub category of abilities you already have (attributes!). so instead of being able to add points to ST, DX, IQ, HT, HP, Will, Per, FP, Basic Speed, and Basic Move, we want to limit it to only ST, DX, IQ, and HT. Being able to add points to abilities you already have is -20%, and a subset of that is -30%.

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Originally Posted by Dichotomy View Post
...
I quite like that, but that seems to cover 40 points worth of any attribute, skill, and advantage, which is definitely WAY more than I was shooting for as a racial.
Nope, those 40 points can only be used for ST, DX, IQ, and HT. Limited, attributes only makes it that way.
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Old 02-12-2020, 11:55 PM   #23
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Default Re: Modular attributes?

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Originally Posted by Dichotomy View Post
I'm trying to create a racial ability to represent a races limited ability to shapeshift. They already have elastic skin, but I'm also trying to include something non-cosmetic and I know what I want it to do, but I'm not sure what it should cost:

Modular attributes: you have 20 points to move around between attributes (so +2 ST, +1 ST +1 HT, or +1 IQ, etc), at the end of a 5+ hours rest you can change where these points are allocated.

Anyone have any ideas? Would adding the option to include secondary characteristics be a bad idea?

Modular abilities doesn't seem to fit at all, so I'm not sure where to get the base cost, or exactly how the "only after extended rest" limitation applies for discounts and I'd like players of this race to be able to increase the size of their point pool over time if they want to with additional points.
Perhaps I'm missing something; but why couldn't a limited ability to shapeshift be handled as Shapeshifting with Limitations? Either Alternate Forms (if you've got a fixed catalog of configurations for your attributes) or Morph (if you don't)?
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Old 02-13-2020, 03:34 AM   #24
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Default Re: Modular attributes?

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
So, let us take a look at the Modular Ability, which we will call Flexible Attribute. Here is an example:

Flexible Attribute (100, 100, 100; Costs FP, 10 FP, -50%; Immediate Preparation Required, 8 hours, -90%; Physical and Mental, +100%; Psychic, -10%; Requires IQ roll, -10%; Take Extra Time 2, -20%) [183]. Notes: After 8 hours of preparation, the user must make an IQ roll and spend 10 FP before immediately allocating their CPs, taking four seconds per CP.

Yes, it would take three days to complete allocate their points, but that is not really important, as they will have gained 300 CP of attributes for 183 CP.
Yeah, there's a bug in the system that allows you to buy points cheaper than it would without flexibility if you load up on limitations. My solution (admittedly not RAW) is to say that minimum cost for a point in MA is 2 points. So you can't get it cheaper than 0.8 per slot + 2 points "per point".

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Originally Posted by dataweaver View Post
Perhaps I'm missing something; but why couldn't a limited ability to shapeshift be handled as Shapeshifting with Limitations? Either Alternate Forms (if you've got a fixed catalog of configurations for your attributes) or Morph (if you don't)?
Not flexible enough. You'd need a truckload of Alternate Forms to cover all the different permutations. No, MA is the way to go here.
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Old 02-13-2020, 07:12 AM   #25
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Default Re: Modular attributes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
So, let us take a look at the Modular Ability, which we will call Flexible Attribute. Here is an example:

Flexible Attribute (100, 100, 100; Costs FP, 10 FP, -50%; Immediate Preparation Required, 8 hours, -90%; Physical and Mental, +100%; Psychic, -10%; Requires IQ roll, -10%; Take Extra Time 2, -20%) [183]. Notes: After 8 hours of preparation, the user must make an IQ roll and spend 10 FP before immediately allocating their CPs, taking four seconds per CP.

Yes, it would take three days to complete allocate their points, but that is not really important, as they will have gained 300 CP of attributes for 183 CP.
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Originally Posted by Dichotomy View Post
yes modular abilites can be min maxed, but I'm not seeing what any of what you said has to do with the racial I'm proposing.
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Originally Posted by Anders View Post
Yeah, there's a bug in the system that allows you to buy points cheaper than it would without flexibility if you load up on limitations. My solution (admittedly not RAW) is to say that minimum cost for a point in MA is 2 points. So you can't get it cheaper than 0.8 per slot + 2 points "per point".
I watch modifiers on modular abilities like a hawk: its one of the advantages that can be broken that way. I'm generally opposed to time-based restrictions on any modular abilities other than cosmic. The amount of time required is baked into the cost of the modular ability already, in the cost per point. I'm also wary of limitations that apply only to the switching around of modular abilities. That's applying the advantage, and there are myriad ways to actually USE it.
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Old 02-13-2020, 11:33 AM   #26
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Default Re: Modular attributes?

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Prep Required means preparation that's taking your active time away from doing something else, like conducting a ritual or meditating -- not just resting, which you have to do anyway.
Yeah I forgot how it specifies "take the concentrate maneuver for the required amount of time". Using "Last Gasp" logic, you're not recovering any AP doing that. A "rest" is presumably "Do Nothing" or at most an untriggered Wait or All-Out-Defence (as those also recover AP). Not merely a 0-AP maneuver like Concentrate/Aim/Shoot which don't gain or lose AP.
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Old 02-13-2020, 03:38 PM   #27
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Default Re: Modular attributes?

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Originally Posted by dataweaver View Post
Perhaps I'm missing something; but why couldn't a limited ability to shapeshift be handled as Shapeshifting with Limitations? Either Alternate Forms (if you've got a fixed catalog of configurations for your attributes) or Morph (if you don't)?
AF has the same problem as AAs in this situation. Shapeshifting could work, but Improvised Forms is +100% and I can't imagine there being enough limitations to bring the total below 140 (100 from a theoretical modified Morph, 40pt pool).

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Originally Posted by Anders View Post
Yeah, there's a bug in the system that allows you to buy points cheaper than it would without flexibility if you load up on limitations. My solution (admittedly not RAW) is to say that minimum cost for a point in MA is 2 points. So you can't get it cheaper than 0.8 per slot + 2 points "per point".
I don't know if I'd make the minimum cost 2per, but making a hard rule that any MA can't be built that cheap does the same thing, so I agree with your goal.

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I watch modifiers on modular abilities like a hawk: its one of the advantages that can be broken that way. I'm generally opposed to time-based restrictions on any modular abilities other than cosmic. The amount of time required is baked into the cost of the modular ability already, in the cost per point. I'm also wary of limitations that apply only to the switching around of modular abilities. That's applying the advantage, and there are myriad ways to actually USE it.
Certain limitations seem like they'd only make sense on the 'base' of MA and not the points themselves. For instance, Costs FP on the whole thing make it cost FP per minute (or second), but Costs FP on only the base I would interpret means it only costs FP to change it. I think that alone avoids most MA cheese.
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Old 02-13-2020, 09:57 PM   #28
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Default Re: Modular attributes?

How about this:

Morph (Mass Conservation, -20%; Retains Shape, -20%) [60], plus up to another -40% in limitations, for a cost as low as 20 points. For insurance, “can only reallocate attributes”, or “cosmetic changes cannot exceed what's possible for Elastic Skin” (which would actually replace and subsume both Mass Conservation and Retains Shape, and so would be worth at least -40%, but less than -80%). Or Minimum Duration (up to 8 hours, -5%): once you've altered your form, you must wait (up to) 8 hours before you can shift again. As the GM, you may rule that that's 5 hours, not 8.

This doesn't give you any additional points for attributes; but it lets you rearrange the ones you have to your heart's content, limited only by the fact that the attributes must be appropriate for whatever cosmetic changes you've made. Basically, it works on a “Rob Peter to pay Paul” basis: if you're going for a form with more ST, you'll need to lose some DX and/or HT (or appropriate Secondary Characteristics) in compensation.

This would replace Elastic Skin; so if you just go with the bare-bones model described above, you're only paying 40 points to rearrange your attribute points freely. That's why “cosmetic changes can't exceed Elastic Skin” can't be as high as -80%: you're getting more utility than you would from Elastic Skin, so you should pay more for it than the 20 points that Elastic Skin costs. That said, it probably would be worth more than -40%, as there are some restrictions on Elastic Skin that aren't covered by Mass Conservation or Retains Shape: for instance, Elastic Skin doesn't let you change your wardrobe: you're wearing what you're wearing.
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Last edited by dataweaver; 02-13-2020 at 10:04 PM.
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Old 02-13-2020, 11:32 PM   #29
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Default Re: Modular attributes?

Revising my last suggestion a bit:

Morph (cosmetic changes follow the rules and restrictions of Elastic Skin, -50%; trait changes are limited to a 20-point shift in attributes, -20%; minimum duration of 5 hours, -5%) [25]

Frankly, the main difficulty I'm running into here is in keeping it from becoming too cheap: the trait-shifting restriction could easily be worth far more than -20% (I could easily see it being worth -40%, -50%, or even -80%). The alternate takes on how to keep the attribute shifts from taking place more often than once every 5 hours are really with more than -5%. And even if you were to go with my initial suggestion of Mass Conservation and Retains Shape, that would only reduce the net discount by -10% compared to what I suggest here.
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Old 02-14-2020, 12:28 AM   #30
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Default Re: Modular attributes?

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Originally Posted by dataweaver View Post
Revising my last suggestion a bit:

Morph (cosmetic changes follow the rules and restrictions of Elastic Skin, -50%; trait changes are limited to a 20-point shift in attributes, -20%; minimum duration of 5 hours, -5%) [25]

Frankly, the main difficulty I'm running into here is in keeping it from becoming too cheap: the trait-shifting restriction could easily be worth far more than -20% (I could easily see it being worth -40%, -50%, or even -80%). The alternate takes on how to keep the attribute shifts from taking place more often than once every 5 hours are really with more than -5%. And even if you were to go with my initial suggestion of Mass Conservation and Retains Shape, that would only reduce the net discount by -10% compared to what I suggest here.
That looks like a pretty fun trait to use. Regardless of the actual cost of the limitations, [25] doesn't seem like an unfair cost for this. Although, part of me sees it as a +25% enhancement to Elastic Skin now XD
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