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Old 05-14-2019, 11:57 AM   #1
ericthered
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Default Keeping a Foe at a Distance with a Longer Weapon

This is a classic situation: one guy has a long weapon like a spear, the other has a shorter weapon like a knife or is a beast like a wolf with sharp teeth but a short reach. The spearman doesn't try to parry attacks from the wolf as much as he tries to prevent the wolf from closing the distance.

What maneuvers do I use to represent this in Gurps? I don't think its a simple matter of wait maneuvers. I feel like the spearman should be able to attack without letting the wolf close the distance, and I feel like the wolf's attempt to close should be able to end in being driven off rather than either succeeding or getting spitted.

How do I run this scenario?
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Old 05-14-2019, 12:19 PM   #2
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Default Re: Keeping a Foe at a Distance with a Longer Weapon

Perhaps have the wolf attempt to close with a maneuver that allows them to Retreat, and use that Retreat to avoid the spitting. Then don't let them to seamlessly carry on the advance, even though by the rules they seem to be clearly allowed to do so (aside from having to re-do a yard of their advance). So, basically, the spearman makes their attack roll successfully and the wolf makes the 'safe' response of falling back instead of trying to duck past.

If they elect not to retreat from the spearman's threat, they're committing to success or spitting. That's a thing they can do. If you want to model the possibility that it's not a thing they can make themselves do, that'd be the domain of some kind of will roll, perhaps akin to the one on Tactical Shooting p21 to leave cover while under fire.
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Old 05-14-2019, 12:39 PM   #3
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Default Re: Keeping a Foe at a Distance with a Longer Weapon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Perhaps have the wolf attempt to close with a maneuver that allows them to Retreat, and use that Retreat to avoid the spitting. Then don't let them to seamlessly carry on the advance, even though by the rules they seem to be clearly allowed to do so (aside from having to re-do a yard of their advance). So, basically, the spearman makes their attack roll successfully and the wolf makes the 'safe' response of falling back instead of trying to duck past.
Where does the spearman get this "Attack" from? Does it replace his active defense? I suppose that the wolf gets to know if it succeeded or not, and can thus close the distance if the attack completely fails. I wonder if the attack should be treated as telegraphic in this case, as its really not actually meant to hit.

This is all not RAW of course, and a RAW method would be nice.
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Old 05-14-2019, 12:39 PM   #4
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Default Re: Keeping a Foe at a Distance with a Longer Weapon

I think the wait maneuver does match this situation best. The short range combatant (SRC) is currently just out of reach of the long range combatant (LRC). The SRC doesn't want to risk getting stabbed on the way in... really... who wants to get stabbed. So, keeping them at a distance is probably largely a function of not wanting to be hurt. And, if you're using the Shock rules, if the LRC's attack hits on the way in, the SRC's attack is much less likely to connect. There's a fair amount of disadvantage to being the SRC.

If they decide to risk it, they have to try to defend on the way in. And this is pretty realistic too. If the wolf can juke out of the way as he runs in, he can try his bite... probably with a Move and Attack option. It also makes sense the bite would be less likely to connect if the wolf had to pay attention to moving, dodging, AND attacking. But now he's close to the LRC.

I think the Wait maneuver is just right to represent this scenario.
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Old 05-14-2019, 12:43 PM   #5
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Default Re: Keeping a Foe at a Distance with a Longer Weapon

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Originally Posted by kdtipa View Post
I think the Wait maneuver is just right to represent this scenario.
Does the spearman have to forgo attacking in order to retain his advantage then? That doesn't feel right. There is also no situation where the wolf tests his foe's defenses and backs up rather than making it in.
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:09 PM   #6
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Default Re: Keeping a Foe at a Distance with a Longer Weapon

Don't think of it in terms of the spearman forgoing their attack. They're just timing the attack so that it also serves as a deterrent.

If you spearman has a sufficiently high initiative they can hold action on the charge of the wolf, if it comes within step&attack reach, but cannot get in close, they can attack the wolf. Then at the top of the round, step and commit to a wait maneuver and attack the Wolf once again as it tries to advance, using that reach to force the wolf to move and attack on their turn for a poorer chance of hitting.
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:09 PM   #7
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Default Re: Keeping a Foe at a Distance with a Longer Weapon

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Does the spearman have to forgo attacking in order to retain his advantage then? That doesn't feel right. There is also no situation where the wolf tests his foe's defenses and backs up rather than making it in.
If the spearman wants to keep his 'advantage" instead of just stabbing the wolf deeply and thereby winning the fight, then yes he does need to Wait rather than Attack. If he Attacked and missed then the wolf could Attack before the spearman is back into Attack position. Pretty much a normal Turn by Gurps standards.

The situation where the wolf probes but then pulls back is a failed Feint on the wolf's part.
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:11 PM   #8
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Default Re: Keeping a Foe at a Distance with a Longer Weapon

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Where does the spearman get this "Attack" from? Does it replace his active defense? I suppose that the wolf gets to know if it succeeded or not, and can thus close the distance if the attack completely fails. I wonder if the attack should be treated as telegraphic in this case, as its really not actually meant to hit.

This is all not RAW of course, and a RAW method would be nice.
They Wait. I was not suggesting a mechanic that allows you to attack without following regular maneuvers (and probably never will). The only thing I proposed that is not RAW is not permitting the attacker to keep advancing after their Retreat.

A Telegraphic attack is actually a very questionable choice in this situation. The spearman needs two things to happen: they succeed in their attack roll, and the opponent doesn't elect to keep coming anyway. If you telegraph it, you risk making them like their odds of dodging without retreating, at which point you're liable to get a face-full of wolf.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Does the spearman have to forgo attacking in order to retain his advantage then? That doesn't feel right. There is also no situation where the wolf tests his foe's defenses and backs up rather than making it in.
Yes, the spearman can't simultaneously take the initiative and hold the line. I don't see that as a problem. EDIT: Of course, if you've got two spearmen, that becomes an option.
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:24 PM   #9
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Default Re: Keeping a Foe at a Distance with a Longer Weapon

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Does the spearman have to forgo attacking in order to retain his advantage then? That doesn't feel right. There is also no situation where the wolf tests his foe's defenses and backs up rather than making it in.
I think it might work like this:

Spear-guy sees foe approach
Spear-guy chooses to "Wait" until foe closes
Foe tries to close to attack
Spear-guy attacks as foe closes
Spear hits (or not)
Foe chooses defense, if needed (wolf could logically choose "Retreating Dodge")
Defense succeeds or fails
Damage roll either disables foe, or not, or defense works
If not disabled, foe closes to attacK
Attack roll succeeds
Spear-guy chooses Retreating Dodge
Dodge succeeds (or not)
Spear-guy disabled (or not)
If not, spear-guy chooses step-and-wait, and steps backwards
Foe must close, again
Rinse and repeat.

Maybe something like that?

(Of course, if in a formation, spearman blocks or parries, as a retreating dodge would break said formation. If he's got other spear-carriers behind him, though, the attacker might have to defend against multiple attacks, so that's the trade-off.)
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:44 PM   #10
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Default Re: Keeping a Foe at a Distance with a Longer Weapon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Leviathan View Post
Don't think of it in terms of the spearman forgoing their attack. They're just timing the attack so that it also serves as a deterrent.
Is it then really a deterrent? The spear doesn't have a better chance of hitting the wolf, the wolf doesn't have a worse chance of dodging the spear, and the fact that its a long spear held between your body and the wolf doesn't matter: the tactic is just as effective if you're swinging an axe or stabbing with a dagger. I've goofed around with hitting friends with sticks, and keeping a pointed tip between you and a foe is much more effective than simply attacking if they come too close. I'm looking to emulate that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
If the spearman wants to keep his 'advantage" instead of just stabbing the wolf deeply and thereby winning the fight, then yes he does need to Wait rather than Attack. If he Attacked and missed then the wolf could Attack before the spearman is back into Attack position. Pretty much a normal Turn by Gurps standards.
Thank you for demonstrating what's frustrating me about these replies. You think that the advantage of keeping a point between you and the foe is inferior to the advantage of an attempted attack. I've seen that this is not case in my own experience: When someone moves in to attack you at close range the path of their body becomes much more predictable, and you can use the weapon to obstruct their path rather than actually attacking. This usually doesn't end with the guy getting either stabbed or making it past you (at least not 50% of the time or more): it ends with the short ranged guy backing up with he sees that he can't.

If someone with more mock melee combat than me can explain what I'm getting wrong about that, please do, my experience is fairly minimal, but I'm interested in getting the rules to model those combats, not optimizing the situation to fit with existing rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
They Wait. I was not suggesting a mechanic that allows you to attack without following regular maneuvers (and probably never will). The only thing I proposed that is not RAW is not permitting the attacker to keep advancing after their Retreat.

A Telegraphic attack is actually a very questionable choice in this situation. The spearman needs two things to happen: they succeed in their attack roll, and the opponent doesn't elect to keep coming anyway. If you telegraph it, you risk making them like their odds of dodging without retreating, at which point you're liable to get a face-full of wolf.
Ok, so you're saying that the wolf tries to attack, and the spearman attacks. If the spearman succeeds, the wolf dodges back for a big bonus, but doesn't get to close the distance. If the spearman misses, the wolf is behind his guard, and he's in trouble. That makes sense, and would imply the behavior is the result of the wolves trying to maximize their dodge and make safe attacks.

When I referred to telegraphic attacks I meant giving the wolf a bonus to dodge if it backs up in exchange for a bonus to hit on that first roll. If the wolf is going to back up on any hit, telegraphic is a good option. If its more accepting of risk, that could backfire.

It still doesn't give weapons that can present a point an advantage.
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