Five Earths, All in a Row

[Dargaron]

Originally Posted by warellis

Well I was presuming that with Fa-Earth (Fantasy Earth, the one with Arthur stuff) having all this magitech due to the thoughtforms there that Inp-Earth would be able to create more advanced versions of said magitech and it might be possible to prove souls exist through said magitech.

I just think that people who already believe in souls would still believe in souls, and those who do not would continue to not believe in souls.

To switch it around: if an experiment were done that found that humans do not, in fact, have souls, but are wholly mechanistic beings, the vast majority of religious people (in certain traditions) will still believe that there is a soul somewhere, just undetectable. In the same token, if an experiment proved that humans have souls, then those who believe we have souls will still believe that we have them, and those who don't believe that will probably not.

Now, if one could act on a soul (change someone's fundamental nature via a scientific or a semi-scientific process), then some people who believe in souls (a large number of them, I suspect) would probably claim that the thing discovered isn't the "real" soul; that our deepest, most personal essence is something else, which is not susceptible to the new methods of controlling or altering a soul-like thing.

That's my belief, at any rate.

Originally Posted by warellis

You know what's creepy: when you said "reincarnated into a human" I started thinking "what if you put the backup into a baby body instead of a adult human body or whatever body your age was at when you died?" Could you imagine dying as an adult but they save your mind & soul and stick into a baby body?

It'd be really hard to put a back up brain into a baby, just because of size and metabolism constraints. I mean, a baby's head is big in proportion to its body, but it still wouldn't be big enough to hold an adult brain.

A teenage/young adult body, on the other hand... (and that would somewhat negate the squickiness of having a fully mature brain in the body of a child).

Originally Posted by warellis

Also regarding what you said about Hinduism and backing up, would that be allowed though? Religions will evolve with times to keep up, that's how religions have been successful, but considering this has the hand of man guiding the entire process would Hindus be okay with that? Would it seem sorta like cheating or something to them? I don't know much about Hinduism other than the whole "huge numbers of gods" and there's a reincarnation cycle. How is the reincarnation cycle guided in Hinduism? Other than how you lived your life, are there any other things that determine how you will reincarnate? For instance could it be argued that the problem here is that even if you lived your life poorly you can just get backed up into another human body instead of a more deserving fate, like say getting reincarnated into a dog? It's just an example since as I said I don't know much about Hinduism.

First of all, a disclaimer: please do not take me for any kind of expert. I have a passing knowledge of the Indian religious tradition (read: I watched some lectures on it once, and read the Civilopedia entry in Civilization IV).

I would think that, from a standpoint of reincarnation, there wouldn't be much difference between being uploaded into a new body and having a life-saving heart transplant. Either way, your life would have ended, but it did not. One analogy I've heard for Karma is that it's like the action-reaction relationship in physics: it's not a personal force; it's just a "fact" of existence that if you behave in a certain way towards the world, at some point in the future, the world will behave similarly to you. That may be tomorrow or a century from now. So, from that point of view, if you did not have the good Karma to merit the back-up process, than for some reason or another, you would not succeed in getting it. The position would probably go something like this: If the universe doesn't want something to happen to you, it won't happen.

Originally Posted by warellis

Also isn't there the whole issue about remembering everything in the "past life"? In Buddhism or Hinduism when you reincarnate do you remember your past life? Does each reincarnation allow for a clean slate/tabula rosa? Because when you think about it, isn't one issue with comparing this to reincarnation that in this case you will remember everything about your "past life" when you "reincarnate" through this method? If you're an ******* and get backed up and put in another body, you're still probably going to be an *******. Wouldn't that make it harder to achieve nirvana or enlightenment or whatever because you still have your old personality or morals or whatever? It's not like your personality and memories are wiped clean and your starting anew. To use the reincarnation analogy again, it's like if I'm a selfish man who lies and cheats when I "reincarnate" (backup and put into a new body), my old life's personality and morals will be so strong as to imprint upon the new "me", to the point it could be claimed I didn't really reincarnate, but my old self just stole a new body.

Again, this seems like really high theology that I am not equipped to deal with, but here's a stab: I do not think you are supposed to automatically remember your past lives (which is natural enough: I certainly don't have millions of years of trilobite memories at my beck and call, and I'm guessing that not many people claim otherwise).

I think that, while it's the same soul in each rebirth, its characteristics are expressed in different ways. So, for instance, even though a soul might have been a bloodthirsty murderer in its previous life, under the right tutelage, it could become a pacifist in the next (if raised by the right parents, instructed by a really charismatic monk, etc.) They would still have to suffer the effects of any bad Karma at some point (not necessarily in that next life!)

Originally Posted by warellis

I guess it seems like Grand Theft Me in this case than really reincarnating. Albeit doing so on your newer body. I guess it strikes me as more of a continuation of your current life than really a form of reincarnation, unless they mindwipe you of your memories and personality and everything and stick into a baby body.

That's an important point (and I mentioned it earlier), and how I think a Hindu or a Buddhist would see such a process. It would be like recovering from a near-death experience: you were close to ending your current life, but then it resumed. Even if you were revived months or years after your "death," I feel that the "Ideal" Hindu or Buddhist would regard that as analogous to recovering from a long coma.

Originally Posted by warellis

I say all this because I've seen it in fiction in stuff like anime where a villain who is attempting to reincarnation will often overwrite the personality of who they're reincarnating into (possessing more like) and it'll be pretty much the villain in a new body. Is that reincarnation or something else?

No idea: it would probably depend on whether the body they're possessing is viewed as having a soul or not. If the person possessing someone else, it'd probably be viewed as a "soul transplant," and if done forcefully, would probably be analogous to drugging someone to steal their heart for transplant or something. I don't know if an unconscious clone, grown in a vat without a brain, and then fitted with a backup copy of "you," would have its own individual soul or not. You'd probably get less bad Karma from this option, though.

Now, there would be lots of variation. There would be Hindus who saw the back-up process as a monstrous perversion of the order of nature, and there would probably be Buddhists who would disapprove on the grounds that, be preserving a single "self" for the soul to identify with, the process was interfering with one's attempt to shed identity and rejoin the world soul. I really don't know what the mainline position would be, or what major divisions of thought that such a breakthrough would lead to.

But this is getting dangerously close to discussion of real-world religious doctrine. I've tried not to actually reference all that much Hindu/Buddhist theology that isn't common knowledge. Of course, you'd be better off asking these questions of someone who actually followed one of these faiths. I can only give a second/third-hand opinion as a semi-interested observer.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by Dargaron

I just think that people who already believe in souls would still believe in souls, and those who do not would continue to not believe in souls.

To clarify and generalize what I'm pretty sure you're saying, the two sides categorize souls (and gods, spirits, magic, et cetra) differently: one side says 'these things are supernatural, they are beyond the understanding of science and always will be,' while the other side says 'there is no such thing as "supernatural"; if it exists, it can be scientifically understood, eventually'.

For purposes of this thread, the latter view is correct, it's just that reconciling physics with psionics to the point of making psychic machines without connecting spirits/thoughtforms/astral entities to them doesn't happen until TL12+. The Mysterons on Dp-verse Mars can do it, but no-one else in the Dp-Earth Sol System, really.

You don't exactly need that understanding to cast spells or make magic items (or design new ones, for that matter), in much the same way that you don't need to understand molecular biology and neuroscience (or even know what those words mean) to breed and train horses.

[Prince Charon]

Here are a couple of low-level 'empowered gamer' characters I created. I was going to post them after I posted a higher level group, but these two are actually complete... unless someone notices something that needs fixing.

The skill listed as 'Performance (Role-Playing Games) [IQ/E]' is not a typo, it's an optional specialty; it's the skill that separates role-players from 'roll' players.


Robert Freeman

Age: 40

Attributes

ST 9 [-10]; DX 10 [0]; IQ 12 [40]; HT 10 [0]

Secondary Characteristics

HP 9; Will 12; Per 12; FP 10

Social Background

Languages: Modern English (Native) [0]

TL: 8

Cultural Familiarity: 21st Century Western [0]

Subtotal: 30


Advantages

Less Sleep 1 [2]
Longevity [2]

Perks

Active Thoughtform Generation [1]
Dabbler (Current Affairs: Business 10, Headline News 9, Politics 9, Regional (County) 10, Science & Technology 10) [1]
Magical Style Familiarity (Voodoo) [1]
Penetrating Voice [1]

Subtotal: 8


Disadvantages

Bad Sight (Nearsighted; Mitigator: Glasses/Contacts) [-15]
Chummy [-5]
Fat [-3]
Pacifism (Reluctant Killer) [-5]
Unfit [-5]

Quirks

Awkward and shy in romantic situations. [-1]
Likes pizza more than he probably should. [-1]
Has a crush on Lisa, but feels guilty over the 14-year age difference. [-1]
Dislikes telephone solicitors. [-1]
Gives racists the silent treatment, where possible. [-1]

Subtotal: -38


Skills

Accounting [IQ/H] [2] 11

Area Knowledge (Town) [IQ/E] [1] 12

Computer Operation/TL8 [IQ/E] [1] 12

Connoisseur (Comics & Games) [IQ/A] [4] 13

Driving [DX/A] [1] 9

Hobby (Role Playing Games) [IQ/E] [2] 13
Hobby (Voodoo Facts & Myths) [1] 12

Merchant [IQ/A] [4] 13

Occultism [IQ/A] [2] 12

Performance (Role-Playing Games) [IQ/E] [2] 13

Research [IQ/A] [1] 11

Ritual Magic (Voodoo) [IQ/VH] [2] 10
Path of Dreams [IQ/VH] [1] 9
Path of Health [IQ/VH] [1] 9
Path of Luck [IQ/VH] [1] 9
Path of Protection [IQ/VH] [1] 9
Path of the Spirit [IQ/VH] [1] 9

Subtotal: 28

Total: 28

Equipment

Charms
Smartphone
Swiss Army Knife
Wallet, keys, etc.

Notes

Bob runs a comics & gaming shop in a town in Illinois, Inp-USA. When not at the counter, or doing paperwork in his office, he can usually be found at one of the gaming tables, either playing or running. On many Saturdays, he GMs the longest-running GURPS Voodoo: The Shadow War campaign he's aware of (they didn't switch to 4e until a few months after GURPS Thaumatology came out) - interestingly, the choice had nothing to do with the fact that he's black: they put the names of a bunch of GURPS setting-books in a hat, and that was the one he pulled out. His Voodoo Hobby skill is a result of doing research for that campaigne. Most of his close friends have pretty similar stats (in general, take charcters from the Gurps Modern Folks thread, juggle points around, and maybe add a few quirks, or a minor disadvantage or two to pay for the skills and Perks - most of them are either Skinny, Overweight, or Fat, for example - or just bring up the point cost a little), except for Lisa, an otherwise-generic rookie cop with minor psychic powers. On certain nights, the group gets together to make charms to help Lisa and her fellow officers, usually taking extra time to compensate for low skills, and gather enough power.

Bob uses an Energy Accumulating form of Voodoo (not Vodoun, which is an actual religion), probably because that's what his gaming group has been using for the past few years. For critical failures, he rolls on the Spirit-Oriented Magic table. Some of the other members of his gaming group use the same system (though they don't have as many Paths), while others, like Lisa, have low-level psi powers.

It could be argued that Lisa counts as the group's patron, but it can also be argued that the group is Lisa's Patron.

This is Bob as of the Ides of March, 2013. By mid-March, 2014, he will have gained the local police as a direct group Patron (being official paid consultants on paranormal matters), bought off Fat and Unfit, and gained the Lifting and Running skills, along with increasing his Voodoo skills (Ritual Magic (Voodoo) and Path of Protection at 13, all other Paths at 11 or 12). If he focuses on actually developing his powers to become an adventurer, he will also have a few Gadgets (fetishes) and summonable spirit Allies, and perhaps an extra Patron (the ghost of a powerful Vodoun priest or priestess, or some other useful spirit); he might also have brought up his ST by one, and or have started learning combat skills (though he doesn't really have a combatitive personality). Either way, he will also have gained an Enemy: the local would-be Voodoo Queen wants all practitioners of Voodoo or empowered followers of Vodoun in town (not there there are all that many) working for her, or not at all. If Bob's an adventurer, her Frequancy of Appearance will be 9 or less, but if he isn't, it will only be 6 or less, because he's a lower priority.


Officer Lisa Sorensen

Age: 26

Attributes

ST 10 [0]; DX 10 [0]; IQ 11 [20]; HT 10 [0]

Secondary Characteristics

HP 10; Will 12 [5]; Per 11; FP 11 [3]

Social Background

Languages: Modern English (Native) [0]; Spanish (Broken) [2]

TL: 8

Cultural Familiarity: 21st Century Western [0]

Subtotal: 30


Advantages

Fit [5]
Legal Enforcement Powers [5]
Police Rank 0 [0]
Seekersense 1 [7]
Signature Sniffer 1 [4]

Perks

Classic Features: Blue-eyed blonde. [1]
Exposition Sense [1]
Looks good in uniform. [1]
Visions (Aspected Dream - Paranormal crimes). [1]

Subtotal: 25


Disadvantages

Pacifism: Cannot Harm Innocents [-10]
Code of Honor (Police) [0]
Duty (15 or less) [-15]
Sense of Duty (Friends & Colleagues) [-5]
Weirdness Magnet [-15]

Quirks

Fond of Bob. [-1]
Blood-type O-, gives blood regularly. [-1]
Nosy. [-1]
Daydreams when off-duty. [-1]
Imaginative. [-1]

Subtotal: -50


Skills

Area Knowledge (Beat) [IQ/E] [4] 13
Area Knowledge (Town) [IQ/E] [1] 11

Brawling [DX/E] [2] 10

Climbing [DX/A] [1] 9

Computer Operation/TL8 [IQ/E] [1] 11

Criminology/TL8 [IQ/A] [1] 10

Current Affairs (Regional: Town)/TL8 [IQ/E] [1] 11

Diplomacy [IQ/H] [1] 9

Driving (Automobile)/TL8 [DX/A] [2] 10

Fast-Talk [IQ/A] [1] 10

First Aid/TL8 [IQ/E] [1] 11

Guns (Pistol)/TL8 [DX/E] [4] 12
Guns (Shotgun)/TL8 [1] 10

Hobby (Role Playing Games) [IQ/E] [1] 11

Holdout [IQ/A] [1] 10

Intimidation [Will/A] [1] 11

Law (Inp-U.S.A. Criminal) [IQ/H] [1] 9

Liquid Projector (Sprayer)/TL8 [DX/E] [1] 10

Performance (Role Playing Games) [IQ/E] [1] 11

Professional Skill (Law Enforcement - Local PD) [1]

Psi Sense [Per/H] [1] 9

Psychology [IQ/H] [1] 9

Running [HT/A] [2] 10

Savoir-Faire (Police) [IQ/E] [1] 11

Seekersense [Per/H] [1] 9

Streetwise [IQ/A] [1] 10

Tonfa [DX/A] [2] 10

Visions [IQ/H] [2] 10

Wrestling [DX/A] [2] 10

Writing [IQ/A] [1] 10

Techniques

Handcuffing (Wrestling) (A) Wrestling-2 [2] 10
Retain Weapon (Pistol) (H) DX [2] 11

Exclusion (Psi Sense) (H) Psi Sense-2 [0] 7
Increased Range (Psi Sense) (H) Psi Sense-5 [0] 4

Pinpoint (Seekersense) (H) Seekersense-10 [0] 0

Subtotal: 45

Total: 51


Equipment

Kahr K40, .40 S&W
* 1 spare magazine
Cellphone
Charms
Wallet, keys, etc.

Depatment issue:
Uniform
Badge
Type IIA body armour
Glock 17, 9x19mm
* 2xMagazines
TASER X26
* 2xCartridges
Pepper Spray
Handcuffs
Latex gloves
Mag-Lite flashlight (large)
PR-24
Radio

Notes

Apart from her hobby, and the power and weirdness that came with it, Lisa is a pretty generic rookie cop, angling for Detective in a few years. The template she's based on is taken from GURPS Cops p45, with minor modifications to update the edition and era, and personalize & empower the character.

This is Lisa as of the Ides of March, 2013. By mid-March, 2014, she will have Police Rank 1, and be studying for the Detective's Exam. She will probably have brought up her psi powers by one or two levels, and will have gained a few Gadget powers in the form of various fetishes (mostly defensive or utility, apart from a Ghost Sword effect on her PR-24 baton). She will also have increased her psi skills, and spent points on the techniques. Further, her TASER will have been replaced with one of the 'type-one phasers' (effectively, TL9 Palm Stunners with a casemod mixing Classic Trek looks with TNG ergonomics - dont laugh, the TNG type-ones have better ergonomics than the TOS ones, exactly the reverse of the type twos), being donated to the police by the local Star Trek club/branch of Starship Enterprises.

[warellis]

Regarding the palm stunners, they just look like a Type-1 phaser correct? They don't actually work on phaser principles and if someone from Star Trek actually did look at their mechanism, he or she would say "these aren't phasers" right?

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by warellis

Regarding the palm stunners, they just look like a Type-1 phaser correct? They don't actually work on phaser principles and if someone from Star Trek actually did look at their mechanism, he or she would say "these aren't phasers" right?

Correct. If they worked like 'actual' phasers, I wouldn't have linked to the RES article (and they'd be much more expensive).

[warellis]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

Correct. If they worked like 'actual' phasers, I wouldn't have linked to the RES article (and they'd be much more expensive).

None of the empowered tech being created really is an exact copy of whatever SciFi tech is being created right?

For example the "lightsabers" really wouldn't be lightsabers as say a Jedi would think right?

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by warellis

None of the empowered tech being created really is an exact copy of whatever SciFi tech is being created right?

For example the "lightsabers" really wouldn't be lightsabers as say a Jedi would think right?

Some things are closer than others, but if a reality quake brought a 'real' Jedi to Inp-Earth, they'd look at the local lightsabres and consider them 'really impressive uses of the Force to imitate technology the builders clearly don't have access to.' 'Real' lightsabres would probably have better cutting power than all but the best Inp-Earth lightsabres, for example. One of the not-yet-posted characters has a lightsabre that does 5d(4) burn damage normally, or 1d-5 burn (plus thr/sw cr damage as a baton, if she doesn't hold back enough) in training mode. A 'real' lightsabre would probably do something like 8d(5) burn or higher, as per the Force Swords in GURPS Ultra-Tech p166.

[warellis]

Originally Posted by Dargaron

I just think that people who already believe in souls would still believe in souls, and those who do not would continue to not believe in souls.

To switch it around: if an experiment were done that found that humans do not, in fact, have souls, but are wholly mechanistic beings, the vast majority of religious people (in certain traditions) will still believe that there is a soul somewhere, just undetectable. In the same token, if an experiment proved that humans have souls, then those who believe we have souls will still believe that we have them, and those who don't believe that will probably not.

Now, if one could act on a soul (change someone's fundamental nature via a scientific or a semi-scientific process), then some people who believe in souls (a large number of them, I suspect) would probably claim that the thing discovered isn't the "real" soul; that our deepest, most personal essence is something else, which is not susceptible to the new methods of controlling or altering a soul-like thing.

That's my belief, at any rate.



It'd be really hard to put a back up brain into a baby, just because of size and metabolism constraints. I mean, a baby's head is big in proportion to its body, but it still wouldn't be big enough to hold an adult brain.

A teenage/young adult body, on the other hand... (and that would somewhat negate the squickiness of having a fully mature brain in the body of a child).



First of all, a disclaimer: please do not take me for any kind of expert. I have a passing knowledge of the Indian religious tradition (read: I watched some lectures on it once, and read the Civilopedia entry in Civilization IV).

I would think that, from a standpoint of reincarnation, there wouldn't be much difference between being uploaded into a new body and having a life-saving heart transplant. Either way, your life would have ended, but it did not. One analogy I've heard for Karma is that it's like the action-reaction relationship in physics: it's not a personal force; it's just a "fact" of existence that if you behave in a certain way towards the world, at some point in the future, the world will behave similarly to you. That may be tomorrow or a century from now. So, from that point of view, if you did not have the good Karma to merit the back-up process, than for some reason or another, you would not succeed in getting it. The position would probably go something like this: If the universe doesn't want something to happen to you, it won't happen.



Again, this seems like really high theology that I am not equipped to deal with, but here's a stab: I do not think you are supposed to automatically remember your past lives (which is natural enough: I certainly don't have millions of years of trilobite memories at my beck and call, and I'm guessing that not many people claim otherwise).

I think that, while it's the same soul in each rebirth, its characteristics are expressed in different ways. So, for instance, even though a soul might have been a bloodthirsty murderer in its previous life, under the right tutelage, it could become a pacifist in the next (if raised by the right parents, instructed by a really charismatic monk, etc.) They would still have to suffer the effects of any bad Karma at some point (not necessarily in that next life!)



That's an important point (and I mentioned it earlier), and how I think a Hindu or a Buddhist would see such a process. It would be like recovering from a near-death experience: you were close to ending your current life, but then it resumed. Even if you were revived months or years after your "death," I feel that the "Ideal" Hindu or Buddhist would regard that as analogous to recovering from a long coma.



No idea: it would probably depend on whether the body they're possessing is viewed as having a soul or not. If the person possessing someone else, it'd probably be viewed as a "soul transplant," and if done forcefully, would probably be analogous to drugging someone to steal their heart for transplant or something. I don't know if an unconscious clone, grown in a vat without a brain, and then fitted with a backup copy of "you," would have its own individual soul or not. You'd probably get less bad Karma from this option, though.

Now, there would be lots of variation. There would be Hindus who saw the back-up process as a monstrous perversion of the order of nature, and there would probably be Buddhists who would disapprove on the grounds that, be preserving a single "self" for the soul to identify with, the process was interfering with one's attempt to shed identity and rejoin the world soul. I really don't know what the mainline position would be, or what major divisions of thought that such a breakthrough would lead to.

But this is getting dangerously close to discussion of real-world religious doctrine. I've tried not to actually reference all that much Hindu/Buddhist theology that isn't common knowledge. Of course, you'd be better off asking these questions of someone who actually followed one of these faiths. I can only give a second/third-hand opinion as a semi-interested observer.

You know I was reading an Eclipse Phase thread about religion on RPG.net, and someone said this regarding early-to-medieval Christian concepts of the soul:

Amusingly, the modern notion of a 'soul' is not only rather difficult to fit into the folk metaphysics of first century Judea, it's a little difficult to fit into the technical metaphysics of medieval theology and philosophy, where the term meant something quite different [1]. (The notion that a 'soul' is needed for 'religion' to exist is comitting the same sin as Bertrand Russel's inductive turkey.)

[1] It's been suggested (in a paper that I can't locate because I read the effing thing a computer ago) that yer average Scholastic (or even a fairly Platonically inclined Scholastic) would regard the modern notion as a reducto ad absurdem of an obviously problematic position, and be perfectly happy with emergentism. Christianity for most of its history tended to think of resurrection as being physical in some sense, and still does in some quarters.

So part of me wonders if Clp-Earth, and some Inp-Earth Christian sects, would be less iffy on the idea of mind backups and resleeving? I'm not a religious scholar nor do I specialize in religious studies, but I'm wondering if that quote means they'd be less focused on the whole "continuity of consciousness/soul" thing many question about on mind backups?

[warellis]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

Some things are closer than others, but if a reality quake brought a 'real' Jedi to Inp-Earth, they'd look at the local lightsabres and consider them 'really impressive uses of the Force to imitate technology the builders clearly don't have access to.' 'Real' lightsabres would probably have better cutting power than all but the best Inp-Earth lightsabres, for example. One of the not-yet-posted characters has a lightsabre that does 5d(4) burn damage normally, or 1d-5 burn (plus thr/sw cr damage as a baton, if she doesn't hold back enough) in training mode. A 'real' lightsabre would probably do something like 8d(5) burn or higher, as per the Force Swords in GURPS Ultra-Tech p166.

Would those Inp-Earth "lightsabers" be some type of force sword, as GURPS calls it? Are force swords some sort of psionic bladed sword?

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by warellis

Would those Inp-Earth "lightsabers" be some type of force sword, as GURPS calls it? Are force swords some sort of psionic bladed sword?

Force swords in UT are science fiction technology that doesn't necessarily have a psionic component. Lightsabres in SW are described in contradictory ways, but mostly seem to be technological in nature, the Force being used for fine-tuning and control in combat, rather than being an absolute requirement. Inp-Earth lightsabres are a type of force swords that explicitly are psionic bladed swords, or swords in which the blade is made using some form of psi power.


On the subject of religion and mind-backups, I don't know enough about religion to give a good answer, and am only commenting so it's clear that I'm not ignoring the discussion - in fact, I'm somewhat interested in how it pans out.