Inherent vs. Miraculous

[JCD]

This came up and I wanted other's two cents.

I had an Impudite of Belial who got into a fight with another Demon. His tactic was to lure the other guy onto a bunch of oil and Ignite it, trusting his Firewalker attunement to protect him. It worked.

However, one of the consequences was a rather embarrassing scene where he had to deal with the fact that his clothes had burned off his body, up to melting his motorcycle helmet.

This raised the question: Is something like Firewalker an 'inherent quality' that he just happens to switch from one piece of flesh to another, or is it a "miraculous quality" i.e. his clothes get protected too?

Obviously either are a miracle, but the question remains.

The ONLY piece of evidence I see one way or another was a snark in The Marches where Belial has trouble finding fire resistant cloth in Saville Row Tailors shops. However, I'm not sure I find a comment like that controlling.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by JCD

This came up and I wanted other's two cents.

I had an Impudite of Belial who got into a fight with another Demon. His tactic was to lure the other guy onto a bunch of oil and Ignite it, trusting his Firewalker attunement to protect him. It worked.

However, one of the consequences was a rather embarrassing scene where he had to deal with the fact that his clothes had burned off his body, up to melting his motorcycle helmet.

This raised the question: Is something like Firewalker an 'inherent quality' that he just happens to switch from one piece of flesh to another, or is it a "miraculous quality" i.e. his clothes get protected too?

Obviously either are a miracle, but the question remains.

The ONLY piece of evidence I see one way or another was a snark in The Marches where Belial has trouble finding fire resistant cloth in Saville Row Tailors shops. However, I'm not sure I find a comment like that controlling.

Well, the GURPS breakdown for the power refers to it as "Self Only" rather than "No Encumbrance" (the latter of which is usually used to cover clothes and a few pounds of equipment). Here's the link: http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/in-nomine/mechanics/

I'm not sure if that would count as controlling, either, but it's one more thing to consider.

EDIT: Another thought -- Belial's take on Fire is invariably destructive. Wouldn't it make sense that he protects no more than he has to? On the other hand, if he were to Redeem, I could see his now holy flames taking on a more miraculous quality .....

[ladyarcana55]

Originally Posted by JCD

Is something like Firewalker an 'inherent quality' that he just happens to switch from one piece of flesh to another, or is it a "miraculous quality" i.e. his clothes get protected too?

I would think that the ability would be restricted to the person, myself.

First off, I can't see Belial as having that kind of foresight. More to the point, I can't see him caring.

Secondly it doesn't really make sense to me if something he is carrying is immune just because he is touching it. I can't figure out how that would work.

[Kelly Pedersen]

I agree with the general consensus so far - Belial will protect you from fire, but your stuff should burn, burn, BURN. Also, if losing your stuff screwed up your plan, welcome to disonnance-land! :-)

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

First off, I can't see Belial as having that kind of foresight.

I just wanted to note, though, that I see Belial as actually being pretty high on the "long term planning" list, at least among the destructive Princes*. Remember that his disonnance condition is getting burned by his own plans failing. That's gotta encourage at least some degree of forward-thinking, otherwise he'd be super-disonnant by now from all the poorly-thought-out schemes backfiring on him.

* For the record, my list of "Hell's Best Violent Planners" would be something like this:
1) Baal
2) Belial
3) Valefor (He does heist schemes, but he's got a lot of "just wing it!" to him too, so while his Plan A might be more elegant than Belial's, Belial will have a solid Plan B and C too)
4) Haagenti
5) Furfur
6) Saminga

[Acolyte]

I agree both that your clothes are ash and you might even snag some dissonance if the resultant nudity causes you some serious problems.

As for Belial's planning ability, I'm inclined to agree with Kelly, especially since Belial is mentioned in several places as aping Baal's sophistication and control. I imagine him as a fairly reserved-seeming Prince, mostly, very much demanding the chaotic destruction of things around him but stepping purposely over the flaming corpses and asking for a casualty report. Until of course his Calabite nature gets the better of him and he starts going nuclear.

As for that list, I'd put Furfur above Haagenti, and maybe even Saminga above Haagenti. As described, Haagenti's idea of planning is "ask Kobal to plan it and assign some Servitors to do whatever my big bro suggests." Additionally, Haagenti's Word isn't much suited to efficiency, which is a big part of planning (possibly I think this because I know too many engineers, though). On the flipside, Furfur showed IMMENSE planning ability in his rise to power (assuming canon completion of Night Music), and while any situation can be made more Hardcore with a bit of insanity, the most Hardcore situations are those in which a lot of things come together to make a conflagration impossible to avoid (Balkans, anyone?).

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Acolyte

As for that list, I'd put Furfur above Haagenti, and maybe even Saminga above Haagenti. As described, Haagenti's idea of planning is "ask Kobal to plan it and assign some Servitors to do whatever my big bro suggests."

Well, Haagenti seems to have some ability with basic slapstick humor. It doesn't require the planning horizon of Kobal's jokes, of course, but I'd say it's non-zero.
And I'd defiintely have to put Haagenti above Saminga. Haagenti has plans, albeit short ones. Saminga has mad schemes. Not the same thing. :-)

Originally Posted by Acolyte

On the flipside, Furfur showed IMMENSE planning ability in his rise to power (assuming canon completion of Night Music), and while any situation can be made more Hardcore with a bit of insanity, the most Hardcore situations are those in which a lot of things come together to make a conflagration impossible to avoid (Balkans, anyone?).

I'll certainly cop to not knowing as much about Furfur than the others - I don't have Night Music at all, and of course he hasn't got an expanded writeup (which would be cool, but unlikely - I would put money on him being the lowest on the list of minor Superiors to do). He has always struck me, from others descriptions, though, as the sort who will start headbanging and thrashing things if a plan fails - if you can't be successful, you should at least be LOUD, right? :-)

[JCD]

While I asked about specifics, I wonder how much further is goes. For example, the Malakim David attunement. Do you follow the same principle, or is it Superior specific?

Additionally, how does that jib with having a strength 8 hummingbird?

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by JCD

While I asked about specifics, I wonder how much further is goes. For example, the Malakim David attunement. Do you follow the same principle, or is it Superior specific?

For me, it really depends on what the Superior stands for.

David is about building personal strength (and the strength of groups), so it would make metaphorical sense for just the body of his angels to "go stone" and nothing else. On the other hand, if Gabriel or a redeemed Belial were able to grant the Firewalker gift, I could see it protecting clothes and possessions as well as the body -- Divine Fire destroys the wicked, but heals, guards and lights the way for the righteous.

[Acolyte]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Well, Haagenti seems to have some ability with basic slapstick humor. It doesn't require the planning horizon of Kobal's jokes, of course, but I'd say it's non-zero.
And I'd defiintely have to put Haagenti above Saminga. Haagenti has plans, albeit short ones. Saminga has mad schemes. Not the same thing. :-)

I'll concede to putting Haagenti above Saminga--Haagenti's rise to power had to have some brains behind it, and not just Kobals. And L.Canti. makes it clear that Haagenti has enough smarts to keep his Secret Song secret. Whereas Saminga's rise to power was more an accident...though I think the other Princes underestimate him more than they should.

I'll certainly cop to not knowing as much about Furfur than the others - I don't have Night Music at all, and of course he hasn't got an expanded writeup (which would be cool, but unlikely - I would put money on him being the lowest on the list of minor Superiors to do). He has always struck me, from others descriptions, though, as the sort who will start headbanging and thrashing things if a plan fails - if you can't be successful, you should at least be LOUD, right? :-)

I think that Furfur would deviate from a plan if the deviation would cause more of a ruckus, but he shows enough foresight to pass up short-term rabble-rousing for a greater Hardcore payout later.

And I think Magog's the minor Superior lowest on the to-do list, since canonically he's dead.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Acolyte

And I think Magog's the minor Superior lowest on the to-do list, since canonically he's dead.

Oh right, Magog. Forgot about him. Although, isn't he trapped, rather than dead? Gebbeleth <sp?>, the old Prince of Secrets, would be even lower, since he's even more dead than Magog. Spoilers for Feast of Blades: Still not all dead, of course, but more dead. :-)