What Is Dominic's Law?

Regis · 09-14-2009, 07:48 PM

Heaven's Hyena has a lot of bad press, and understandably so. Dominic has a reputation as a harsh, cold being, willing to damn friend and foe alike at the slightest hint that they have stepped out of line. Indeed, Dominic does judge those who stray from the path he believes they ought to be on, as is his nature. But what are the rules Dominic uses to judge people? How does he determine who is guilty and who is innocent, what is a crime and what is not? Is he entirely arbitrary, or is there a book of the law? Also, what guidelines does he follow in sentencing those who have strayed?

tHEhERETIC · 09-14-2009, 10:27 PM

I'm getting a great deal of mileage from this question.

As I've put on the page for my PbP http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/tHEhERE...CMainNPCs.html
I'm most inspired for Dominic by the ending scene in "The Cell", where Jennifer Lopez' character is both Madonna/nurturer and dominatrix/executioner. It's not that Dominic is rules-oriented, it's that he's genuinely and unselfishly trying to look after the souls of the other angels.

His flaw is that he goes too far, tries to perfect them, still thinking like Uriel. He has too low a tolerance for moral ambiguity, for grey means to accomplish white ends. If someone had a time machine and could kill Pol Pot as a child and save a few million lives, Dominic would attempt to stop them because murder is wrong, no matter who you're murdering.

Sentencing...in my backstory I liken a Dominican executioner to a surgeon. What the angel did wrong is a tumor on his soul to be removed. Hopefully it leaves enough angel after it's done, but that's only a hope. It must be removed both as an absolute (it is evil and has no part here) and as a mercy (it will only grow back, best to save the angel a slow slide into Hell later).

Whether that's a Discord to be cut out or some wrong ideas that must be fixed, the cure is the goal.

Rocket Man · 09-14-2009, 10:42 PM

Another thing to note is that, according to Superiors 1: War & Honor (a great source of information on the Judge), the most common Dominican sentence is an informal reprimand. Dominic's justice is very "eye for an eye," but by the same token he won't give greater punishment than an offense merits -- and in most cases, an angel just needs to be reminded that he was stepping near the line.

After that, according to the book, punishments may include:

--Penance, in cases where an angel clearly did wrong, admits he did, and is willing to make amends.

--A low level of Discord, if the crime was fairly minor, but the angel isn't repentant. The idea is to teach them a (fixable) lesson.

--Loss of Attunements, distinctions or a few Forces if the angel needs to learn a serious lesson in humility. This is supposed to teach him to work with others.

--Outcasting, which may occur in more serious cases where the angel's actions have become far too self-centered. The idea is to teach the angel how hard it is to be cut off from everyone, especially Heaven. This may be of limited duration or have a penance mission attached.

--Vessel-stripping, if it seems too dangerous to leave the angel active on Earth.

--Assignment of a Cherub warder, if the angel seems at risk of sedition or treason.

--Soul-death, reserved for the most serious cases (angels that have become willfully malicious or othewise "evil" and cruising for a Fall).

Remember, too, that Dominic is a Seraph. If someone truthfully claims innocence, the trial is over right there and then ... Dom can hear the Truth in the statement. And even in cases of soul-death -- no, especially in cases of soul-death -- someone can rush in with new evidence right up to the point of execution and get a hearing.

William · 09-15-2009, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regis

Heaven's Hyena has a lot of bad press, and understandably so. Dominic has a reputation as a harsh, cold being, willing to damn friend and foe alike at the slightest hint that they have stepped out of line. Indeed, Dominic does judge those who stray from the path he believes they ought to be on, as is his nature. But what are the rules Dominic uses to judge people? How does he determine who is guilty and who is innocent, what is a crime and what is not? Is he entirely arbitrary, or is there a book of the law? Also, what guidelines does he follow in sentencing those who have strayed?

A classic question. I went through the various sources available to me and compiled a known list of Heaven's Laws, prettied up a bit in the format of a possible in-game short overview. You may wish to alter some of the harsher laws -- some of them are pretty Old-Testament-generous with the execution, and one might debate whether it's philosophically sustainable to make it a crime to be a demon, for example. But the document was hashed out a bit on the mailing list (May and June 2004, if you'd like to scan the archives for the discussion), so I figure it's pretty close to default canon.

Rocket Man · 09-15-2009, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William

A classic question. I went through the various sources available to me and compiled a known list of Heaven's Laws, prettied up a bit in the format of a possible in-game short overview. You may wish to alter some of the harsher laws -- some of them are pretty Old-Testament-generous with the execution, and one might debate whether it's philosophically sustainable to make it a crime to be a demon, for example. But the document was hashed out a bit on the mailing list (May and June 2004, if you'd like to scan the archives for the discussion), so I figure it's pretty close to default canon.

Very cool, William (and incredibly thorough). Thanks!

Acolyte · 09-15-2009, 03:52 PM

Don't forget that Dominic's got a powerful Word-Bound whose job it is to prevent sentences from being too harsh. And that Dominicans have a big hard-on for justice being served on Earth. For example, in the game I'm currently running, the party's under Dominican suspicion (and they have been consorting with Ethereals and a would-be good Undead), so one of their major short term goals is to keep a mundane human their (now Redeemed) Habbalite foe had been toying with from going to jail for crimes he did perform but which were ultimately the demon's fault.

You gotta play to the jury. *grin*

Also that's an awesome law reference. Nice going.

Regis · 09-15-2009, 08:03 PM

To me, Dominic judges criminals, not crimes. A good man who slips, no matter how badly, will be treated with more sympathy than a bad man whose offence is trivial. Your prior offences will count against you, and just because one person committed the same crime in the same way as someone else does not mean that they will receive the same treatment. A lot of the conceits of mortal law to prevent the unfair persecution of individuals by the legal system kind of fall apart when you have an all-but infallible lie detector.

The thing is, as has been noted, Dominic judges and punishes people in a sincere and devoted attempt to make them better. The thing that makes Dominic very, very different from Asmodeus is that Dominic cares about you. Dominic will rip your forces apart if he has to, but he does it for your own good, because the alternative is worse. As for sentencing, well, let the punishment fit the crime. An eye for an eye, and all that.

Andygal · 09-15-2009, 08:59 PM

Dominic is strict and paranoid, but he's strict and paranoid because he wants to make sure he catches small problems before they become big problems. If he can catch an angel who's just starting to wander off track the problem will hopefully be nipped in the bud, before it escalates and ends up in him having no choice but to execute somebody because they've got too far off track to be salvageable before the problem was even noticed.

And yes, given nearly-infallible lie detection, there isn't nearly as much concern about accidentally punishing an innocent as with our legal system.

BillionSix · 09-15-2009, 09:21 PM

Okay, back in the day, I think on the In Nomine mailing list, someone (I wish I could remember who) came up with an 8-page or so document called The Laws of Heaven. I copied it down, and converted it to a pdf file which I still have on my hard drive. I suppose I could send it to anyone who asks. It's really good. I would give credit if I knew who to give it to.

Brian

Rocket Man · 09-15-2009, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillionSix

Okay, back in the day, I think on the In Nomine mailing list, someone (I wish I could remember who) came up with an 8-page or so document called The Laws of Heaven. I copied it down, and converted it to a pdf file which I still have on my hard drive. I suppose I could send it to anyone who asks. It's really good. I would give credit if I knew who to give it to.

Brian

See the link in post No. 4 above. Is that the document you mean?

09-14-2009, 07:48 PM	#1
Regis Join Date: Sep 2009	What Is Dominic's Law? Heaven's Hyena has a lot of bad press, and understandably so. Dominic has a reputation as a harsh, cold being, willing to damn friend and foe alike at the slightest hint that they have stepped out of line. Indeed, Dominic does judge those who stray from the path he believes they ought to be on, as is his nature. But what are the rules Dominic uses to judge people? How does he determine who is guilty and who is innocent, what is a crime and what is not? Is he entirely arbitrary, or is there a book of the law? Also, what guidelines does he follow in sentencing those who have strayed?

09-14-2009, 10:27 PM	#2
tHEhERETIC MIB Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Life imitates art--I'm in Pohang	Re: What Is Dominic's Law? I'm getting a great deal of mileage from this question. As I've put on the page for my PbP http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/tHEhERE...CMainNPCs.html I'm most inspired for Dominic by the ending scene in "The Cell", where Jennifer Lopez' character is both Madonna/nurturer and dominatrix/executioner. It's not that Dominic is rules-oriented, it's that he's genuinely and unselfishly trying to look after the souls of the other angels. His flaw is that he goes too far, tries to perfect them, still thinking like Uriel. He has too low a tolerance for moral ambiguity, for grey means to accomplish white ends. If someone had a time machine and could kill Pol Pot as a child and save a few million lives, Dominic would attempt to stop them because murder is wrong, no matter who you're murdering. Sentencing...in my backstory I liken a Dominican executioner to a surgeon. What the angel did wrong is a tumor on his soul to be removed. Hopefully it leaves enough angel after it's done, but that's only a hope. It must be removed both as an absolute (it is evil and has no part here) and as a mercy (it will only grow back, best to save the angel a slow slide into Hell later). Whether that's a Discord to be cut out or some wrong ideas that must be fixed, the cure is the goal. __________________ Criminy...these two have enough issues, they can sell subscriptions! (ladyarcana55, in a PM)

09-14-2009, 10:42 PM	#3
Rocket Man Petitioner: Word of IN Filk Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Longmont, CO	Re: What Is Dominic's Law? Another thing to note is that, according to Superiors 1: War & Honor (a great source of information on the Judge), the most common Dominican sentence is an informal reprimand. Dominic's justice is very "eye for an eye," but by the same token he won't give greater punishment than an offense merits -- and in most cases, an angel just needs to be reminded that he was stepping near the line. After that, according to the book, punishments may include: --Penance, in cases where an angel clearly did wrong, admits he did, and is willing to make amends. --A low level of Discord, if the crime was fairly minor, but the angel isn't repentant. The idea is to teach them a (fixable) lesson. --Loss of Attunements, distinctions or a few Forces if the angel needs to learn a serious lesson in humility. This is supposed to teach him to work with others. --Outcasting, which may occur in more serious cases where the angel's actions have become far too self-centered. The idea is to teach the angel how hard it is to be cut off from everyone, especially Heaven. This may be of limited duration or have a penance mission attached. --Vessel-stripping, if it seems too dangerous to leave the angel active on Earth. --Assignment of a Cherub warder, if the angel seems at risk of sedition or treason. --Soul-death, reserved for the most serious cases (angels that have become willfully malicious or othewise "evil" and cruising for a Fall). Remember, too, that Dominic is a Seraph. If someone truthfully claims innocence, the trial is over right there and then ... Dom can hear the Truth in the statement. And even in cases of soul-death -- no, especially in cases of soul-death -- someone can rush in with new evidence right up to the point of execution and get a hearing. __________________ “It's not railroading if you offer the PCs tickets and they stampede to the box office, waving their money. Metaphorically speaking” --Elizabeth McCoy, In Nomine Line Editor Author: "What Doesn't Kill Me Makes Me Stronger"

09-15-2009, 03:52 PM	#6
Acolyte Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Seattle	Re: What Is Dominic's Law? Don't forget that Dominic's got a powerful Word-Bound whose job it is to prevent sentences from being too harsh. And that Dominicans have a big hard-on for justice being served on Earth. For example, in the game I'm currently running, the party's under Dominican suspicion (and they have been consorting with Ethereals and a would-be good Undead), so one of their major short term goals is to keep a mundane human their (now Redeemed) Habbalite foe had been toying with from going to jail for crimes he did perform but which were ultimately the demon's fault. You gotta play to the jury. grin Also that's an awesome law reference. Nice going. __________________ “The world is going to Hell in a hand-basket, but I’ve got Good News: I saved my soul by switching to Heaven.” —Baruel, former Djinn of the Media, now Cherub of Destiny and the Angel of Good News

09-15-2009, 08:03 PM	#7
Regis Join Date: Sep 2009	Re: What Is Dominic's Law? To me, Dominic judges criminals, not crimes. A good man who slips, no matter how badly, will be treated with more sympathy than a bad man whose offence is trivial. Your prior offences will count against you, and just because one person committed the same crime in the same way as someone else does not mean that they will receive the same treatment. A lot of the conceits of mortal law to prevent the unfair persecution of individuals by the legal system kind of fall apart when you have an all-but infallible lie detector. The thing is, as has been noted, Dominic judges and punishes people in a sincere and devoted attempt to make them better. The thing that makes Dominic very, very different from Asmodeus is that Dominic cares about you. Dominic will rip your forces apart if he has to, but he does it for your own good, because the alternative is worse. As for sentencing, well, let the punishment fit the crime. An eye for an eye, and all that.

09-15-2009, 08:59 PM	#8
Andygal Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Canada	Re: What Is Dominic's Law? Dominic is strict and paranoid, but he's strict and paranoid because he wants to make sure he catches small problems before they become big problems. If he can catch an angel who's just starting to wander off track the problem will hopefully be nipped in the bud, before it escalates and ends up in him having no choice but to execute somebody because they've got too far off track to be salvageable before the problem was even noticed. And yes, given nearly-infallible lie detection, there isn't nearly as much concern about accidentally punishing an innocent as with our legal system.

09-15-2009, 09:21 PM	#9
BillionSix Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Raleigh, NC	Re: What Is Dominic's Law? Okay, back in the day, I think on the In Nomine mailing list, someone (I wish I could remember who) came up with an 8-page or so document called The Laws of Heaven. I copied it down, and converted it to a pdf file which I still have on my hard drive. I suppose I could send it to anyone who asks. It's really good. I would give credit if I knew who to give it to. Brian __________________ All I need is a warm bed, a kind word and unlimited power.