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Old 12-12-2014, 11:22 AM   #31
Icelander
 
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Default Re: Black Powder Express Rifle stats

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Originally Posted by lwcamp View Post
I expect that most bullets of the time were aspect ratio 1 (spheres) or around 1.5.
That doesn't seem very likely, given that .45-.50 caliber bullets were often 440-500 grains, which seems heavier than a sphere or even a semi-spherical bullet made out of pure lead would yield.

I know that black powder long-range rifles, ever since the 1850s, would use bullets with an aspect ratio of 2.5 to 1. That is achieved with a 530 grain bullet in a .45 diameter.

Which is a nice benchmark and suggests that most of the bullets which achieve good long range performance will have an aspect ratio above 2:1.

I still don't have the intuitive grasp of math to quickly figure out whether the aspect ratio of a 500 grain .50 caliber bullet will be greater or lesser than that of a 330 .45 caliber bullet, assuming the same lead construction. Or in general, how the various 300-600 grain .50 bullets stack up against various 300-530 grain .45 caliber bullets when it comes to aspect ratio and thus Range statistics.

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Originally Posted by lwcamp View Post
If you know the bullet mass, you can divide by the density of lead (11.35 g/cm^3) to get the volume, then divide by the frontal area (pi * (bore diameter)^2 / 4) to get an approximation of the length. Divide the length by the bore diameter for the aspect ratio.
Yeah, that's the opposite of a convenient little equation to pop caliber and the weight of a lead bullet into and derive aspect ratio. :)

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Originally Posted by lwcamp View Post
Or, you can go to google images and do an image search for the bullet or cartridge of your choice, then estimate the aspect ratio from the photo.

I hope this helps.

Luke
That seems like it would be convenient, but usually, when I get a picture of a cartridge, I have no idea how far down into the case the actual bullet extends.

Edit: I've found that the .450 Martini-Henry has an aspect ratio of approximately 2.8 to 1 and the expertimental (and ultimately not adopted, because smokeless powder arrived) .402 Enfield had an aspect ratio of 3.18 to 1.

That's a 1:12 tin-lead alloy bullet in both cases, the former 480 grains and the latter 384 grains.
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Old 12-12-2014, 01:19 PM   #32
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Default Re: Budget and roles

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Yes, I imagine that a pair of 12-gauge Westley Richards doubles with an A&D boxlock ejector would do nicely. Or ought it maybe be one 10-gauge and one 12-gauge? Can you do that with a pair of guns? Is it ill-bred?
No, the guns in a pair of guns ought to be a pair. You use them together on the same game at about the same range, alternating between the pair rather than choosing either according to circumstances.
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Old 12-12-2014, 01:29 PM   #33
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Default Re: Budget and roles

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No, the guns in a pair of guns ought to be a pair. You use them together on the same game at about the same range, alternating between the pair rather than choosing either according to circumstances.
Very good.

Is there a need for a 10-gauge sporting shotgun for social shooting in England?

Or is Col. H.E. Wilkinson sufficiently provided with a pair of Westley Richards doubles in 12-gauge and one lighter gun?

What kind of game did gentlemen take with their 12-gauge doubles, when (if ever) was it absolutely imperative to have a lighter gun and is there any game that is socially important in England to be able to shoot that calls for a 10-gauge double?

We don't want him to be at a social disadvantage for his poverty, but at the same time, his job and most of his hobbies take him far abroad and he only visits England occasionally. He does want to go shooting with peers, naturally, and to appear to lack for nothing in tasteful and well-made sporting gear, but he would rather avoid spending all his newly acquired income on shotguns to shoot driven game near stately homes, as opposed to all the exciting new tools to decimate larger game around the world that are being invented all the time.
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Old 12-12-2014, 01:40 PM   #34
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Default Re: [Adventure Guns] The gun cabinet of a Victorian explorer, hunter, Col. (Ret.)

I'm not sure, because gun gauges have tended to come down a little, and I'm not sure when it happened. I think it has to do with the introduction of choked bores, but smokeless propellants are yhe other obvious possible driver. Ten-bore and other big fowling pieces were certainly out by the Twenties.

The socially important things to shoot are pheasants, and to a lesser extent grouse. You might want a lighter gun for doves and partridges, quail and snipe, but you can take ducks perfectly well by using coarser shot — number four or five instead of six or seven — rather than a bigger gun. You might need a heavier gun for geese or swans at any sort of range — I'm not sure — but that's hardly game shooting. I think that shooting swans might not even have been allowed.

Remember that hosts with coverts to shoot over have gun-rooms full of guns for lending to family members and guests. So it is practically a matter of knowing where your towel is. If you are the right sort of chap people will understand perfectly that you don't have an armoury of fowling pieces because you're "kitted out for lion and antelope, old boy", and lend you a pair of guns and a loader when they invite you for a weekend of grouse-shooting. It's really more important to have the right togs.
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Old 12-12-2014, 02:43 PM   #35
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Default Re: [Adventure Guns] The gun cabinet of a Victorian explorer, hunter, Col. (Ret.)

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Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
I'm not sure, because gun gauges have tended to come down a little, and I'm not sure when it happened. I think it has to do with the introduction of choked bores, but smokeless propellants are yhe other obvious possible driver. Ten-bore and other big fowling pieces were certainly out by the Twenties.
Yes, I suspect that a good shot with a well-balanced pair of twelves won't often have trouble.

What about chokes? The guns of a pair apparently should be identical, so either both are choked or neither, but which would be preferable?

The Colonel wants to have a quality pair that's clearly bought exclusively for English shooting parties and marks him as a sportsman of taste and skill, but would he be more likely to shoot at short ranges or long when invited for pheasant or grouse?

What would be a baseline assumption for choke?

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Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
The socially important things to shoot are pheasants, and to a lesser extent grouse. You might want a lighter gun for doves and partridges, quail and snipe, but you can take ducks perfectly well by using coarser shot — number four or five instead of six or seven — rather than a bigger gun. You might need a heavier gun for geese or swans at any sort of range — I'm not sure — but that's hardly game shooting.
Should you have a pair of snipe guns too or is that not the etiquette with lighter guns?

And ought they be doubles or single-barrels?

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Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
Remember that hosts with coverts to shoot over have gun-rooms full of guns for lending to family members and guests. So it is practically a matter of knowing where your towel is. If you are the right sort of chap people will understand perfectly that you don't have an armoury of fowling pieces because you're "kitted out for lion and antelope, old boy", and lend you a pair of guns and a loader when they invite you for a weekend of grouse-shooting. It's really more important to have the right togs.
Oh, I expect that he'll need to borrow guns all the time. He just wants to have his own guns for the most common needs.

The reason Col. Wilkinson needs to make a special effort to ensure he's perceived as the right sort is, of course, that he's entirely lacking in respectable relations, was until very recently forced to live off a military officer's salary without owning any land or other assets and his ancestry would not stand close scrutiny*.

Rugby, a few months at Oxford and 23 years of honourable military service ensure that he looks, acts and talks like the right sort. A gratifying if modest fame for heroics at the North-West Frontier and his success as an explorer and ethnographer have solidified his place as Status 2 and he has an income of some £600/year by now (mostly from his literary efforts), but Col. Wilkinson nevertheless feels keenly that he has neither the wealth nor the ancestry of his supposed social peers.

*He has no actual claim to the name Wilkinson and the deceased junior officer of that name who fell in the Crimea was in any case not married. Not only is the character secretly a bastard, but his mother was a very light-skinned and Aryan-looking Persian.
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Old 12-12-2014, 03:32 PM   #36
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Default Re: [Adventure Guns] The gun cabinet of a Victorian explorer, hunter, Col. (Ret.)

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What about chokes? The guns of a pair apparently should be identical, so either both are choked or neither, but which would be preferable?
Chokes are modern, but no longer newfangled. I think Greener introduced them to England in the late 1870s.

I don't know when the custom of having an unchoked left barrel and half-choked right, or a half-choked left and fully-choked right, started. Later than 1890 I think.

Quote:
The Colonel wants to have a quality pair that's clearly bought exclusively for English shooting parties and marks him as a sportsman of taste and skill, but would he be more likely to shoot at short ranges or long when invited for pheasant or grouse?
Long when shooting with beaters. Short shots are more common when you are starting game yourself, in rough shooting.

Quote:
What would be a baseline assumption for choke?
Choke.

Quote:
Should you have a pair of snipe guns or is that not the etiquette with lighter guns?

And ought they be doubles or single-barrels?
I don't know. Basically everything other than shooting over coverts is a lot less formal and social, more sport for enthusiasts who are prepared to get cold, wet, and bored in search of a challenging shot.

Quote:
Oh, I expect that he'll need to borrow guns all the time. He just wants to have his own guns for the most common needs.
A pair of twelve bores will serve perfectly.

Quote:
The reason Col. Wilkinson needs to make a special effort to ensure he's perceived as the right sort is, of course, that he's entirely lacking in respectable relations, was until very recently forced to live off a military officer's salary without owning any land or other assets and his ancestry would not stand close scrutiny*.

Rugby, a few months at Oxford and 23 years of honourable military service ensure that he looks, acts and talks like the right sort. A gratifying if modest fame for heroics at the North-West Frontier and his success as an explorer and ethnographer have solidified his place as Status 2 and he has an income of some £600/year by now (mostly from his literary efforts), but Col. Wilkinson nevertheless feels keenly that he has neither the wealth nor the ancestry of his supposed social peers.

*He has no actual claim to the name Wilkinson and the deceased junior officer of that name who fell in the Crimea was in any case not married. Not only is the character secretly a bastard, but his mother was a very light-skinned and Aryan-looking Persian.
Very much so.
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Old 12-12-2014, 04:59 PM   #37
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Default Re: Budget and roles

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I'm afraid I have no idea about original purchase prices for classic shotguns - so unless you've got some seriously well informed people in your group you can probably get way with the amount of detail you have.
The goal is to sprinkle period detail that lends versimilitude, entertains and even educates. Have choices in manufacturer and grade say meaningful things about characters.

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I do know, however, that a matched pair of different calibres would be deeply bizarre and unlikely to occur so you're more likely to see a pair of twelves - I've not seen many ten bores in the UK, and those that I have seen are usually goose guns if that helps.
OK, so you and Brett, having the appropriate Cultural Familirity, have been a great help with the homey details of what is 'done' in the Home Counties.

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Information on 4-bores is even sketchier - I know Henry Stanley used a Belgian copy of a Remington if that helps. Selous' famous muzzle loader is even less well characterised.
Stanley's gun is even in Adventure Guns. It seems a little weak there, though, with less Range and Dmg than the 8-bore Greener.

Col. Wilkinson needs a much more powerful load and double barrels. I've seen (online for sale) a traditional double rifle in 4-bore that weighs 21 lbs. It must be enough gun for a load with more power than the Greener 8-bore packs.
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Old 12-12-2014, 09:14 PM   #38
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Default Re: Early Times of Col. H.E. Wilkinson

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
<SNIP>

1875-1878
Acquired for hunting African elephant a high-quality, if not luxuriously finished, 4-gauge double rifle which he still owns and which may not exceed $6,000 in cost. Also acquired a Winchester Model 1876 in .45-75 Winchester, which runs him $460. Likely to have acquired more guns, but do not know if he kept any when new and improved models became available. He may have started looking for a better long-range weapon than the Martini-Henry at this point, but it is unclear if he obtained one this soon or if he only managed to have a fine rifle made upon next returning to England.

<SNIP>
I've been following this thread with interest and must tip my hat to you and the player for adding this level of detail. I did note one thing above that I wonder about. You've got the cost of the Winchester 76 as being $460. That seems a bit high as even the "One in One Thousand" grade only ran $100 in the late 1870s.
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Old 12-12-2014, 09:40 PM   #39
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Default Re: Early Times of Col. H.E. Wilkinson

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I've been following this thread with interest and must tip my hat to you and the player for adding this level of detail. I did note one thing above that I wonder about. You've got the cost of the Winchester 76 as being $460. That seems a bit high as even the "One in One Thousand" grade only ran $100 in the late 1870s.
Thanks.

Note that when I cite amounts in $ without qualification, I refer to GURPS $, which are a game system artifact used for Starting Wealth. I'll give period prices in pounds sterling (£1=$120 GURPS), gold guineas or shillings.
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Old 12-12-2014, 10:19 PM   #40
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Default Re: [Adventure Guns] The gun cabinet of a Victorian explorer, hunter, Col. (Ret.)

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Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
Chokes are modern, but no longer newfangled. I think Greener introduced them to England in the late 1870s.

I don't know when the custom of having an unchoked left barrel and half-choked right, or a half-choked left and fully-choked right, started. Later than 1890 I think.

Long when shooting with beaters. Short shots are more common when you are starting game yourself, in rough shooting.

Choke.
Very good, choke it is.

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Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
I don't know. Basically everything other than shooting over coverts is a lot less formal and social, more sport for enthusiasts who are prepared to get cold, wet, and bored in search of a challenging shot.
Which certainly does describe Col. Wilkinson, a keen sportsman through-and-through. I will endeavour to avoid spending more than twice what a normal late TL5 or early TL6 shotgun costs in the US, though. Surely that can't be too common for a secondary gun?

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Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
A pair of twelve bores will serve perfectly.
Is it unutterably common to select the plainest field grade from a very respected firm like Westley Richards, for £26?

A typical Best Quality Double from anyone but H&H, Purdey or Boss will run you around £55. The very best from the very best are £100+.

Col. Wilkinson is technically able to afford a better finish and engraving than the £26 field grade, but the player does not want to unless not doing so actually makes a statement about his character that is other than the 'knowledgable sportsman who doesn't care for effete luxury, but projects good taste and good sense with his choices' that he is going for.

What does a severely plain gun from a very skilled maker say about the character? Is it what the player is going for here or should he spring for +50-100% in value to send that message?
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