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Old 12-11-2014, 11:46 PM   #61
Verjigorm
 
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
Do a lot of posters on these forums actually choose to roll for random hit location for melee attacks?

For ranged weapons it makes a lot more sense to me. But melee attacks? Not so much.
I have yet to roll on the random hit location chart. My characters are either non martial and worthless in combat, or very martial and great in melee. But for most of them, the -3 to hit the Vitals or -2 for the legs is a minimal problem to over-come.

Swings go for the legs, to take them out, thrusts go at the vitals or face, and I use armed grapple liberally with stamp kicks and knees to the groin.
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Old 12-12-2014, 12:20 AM   #62
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

One other thing I'd left off the kicking/stamping to legs, is you get +1 to to hit of the legs of someone while standing, which softens the penalties a bit


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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
That means that you should never parry with your legs unless it's against low kicks AND you can't retreat. That seems unlikely enough for virtually no one to ever need to learn such a thing.
It certainly restricts your options against low line kicks, but low line kicks to keep people at bay are thing after all.

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Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
The real beauty of this approach is that you can slip to the the non-weapon side (the knife-wielder's left side assuming he's holding the knife in his right). That way, even if he defends against the arm lock (or whatever you're trying to do to him), he can't damage you with the knife as part of that parry.
I been think (and reading GURPS: Campaigns and MA) I'm not sure about this.

leaving aside the issue of arm locking the non attacking arm with a defensive arm lock, (which I agree seems a bit counter to the image I have in my head). You have to get into CC to actually arm lock. And in Basic are there facing rules in CC?


The bit about side and back facing in Campaigns seems to define in terms of defending and attacking 'side' and 'back' as the hexes in that direction.

Now Technical Grappling has lots on relative facing in CC and changing it, and the advantages and disadvantages of it, and I'd be happy to infer the basic rules regarding side and back facing into basic CC, and add in facing changes once there as part of freeing yourself, but have I missed something? (I've been using TG so long now I tend to have to un-learn it)

Either way barring committed attacks, I think you might have trouble getting to side hex on you retreat slip to then move into CC from your turn. If for no other reason your target going to have their own changes to change facing.

That said I think the idea do committed attack arm lock to get into side attack position is quite fitting!
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Old 12-12-2014, 12:47 AM   #63
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Either way barring committed attacks, I think you might have trouble getting to side hex on you retreat slip to then move into CC from your turn. If for no other reason your target going to have their own changes to change facing.
And now I realised that it's possible to use a Committed Attack (MA99-100) to do two steps and end up in the opponent's side-rear hex before he rolls his attack (which is now a Wild Swing). You lose your Retreat and get -2 to your Active Defence, though.
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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
And in Basic are there facing rules in CC?

The bit about side and back facing in Campaigns seems to define in terms of defending and attacking 'side' and 'back' as the hexes in that direction.
Yeah, seems to only distinguish back and front.
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Old 12-12-2014, 01:39 AM   #64
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Now I have read through the thread and I have seen lots of talk of various mechanics. What I haven't seen in any examples of actual knife disarms. My original Martial Art was Jujitsu and I have since studied Aikido and Judo. While not my school the following series of Videos I have found handy for showing my GMs what my character was doing. I do know that some people on this thread have touched on similar techniques but sometimes it's best to have visuals to go with mechanics.

Jujitsu knife Defense
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Old 12-12-2014, 02:46 AM   #65
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
And now I realised that it's possible to use a Committed Attack (MA99-100) to do two steps and end up in the opponent's side-rear hex before he rolls his attack (which is now a Wild Swing). You lose your Retreat and get -2 to your Active Defence, though.
and -2 on the relative to hit bonus of CA as well, for a net 0 to hit on CA:Determined, and a net -2 to hit on CA:Strong

However you target just has to change his facing before his attack relative facing is changed and it's no longer a wild swing to his side hex. The rules of changing facing are going to important here vis a vis what you do to your target..

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Yeah, seems to only distinguish back and front.
And even then only in terms of determining what hexes you can move off into when leaving CC and weather or not you'll have to evade to do so.
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Old 12-12-2014, 03:05 AM   #66
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockwolf66 View Post
Now I have read through the thread and I have seen lots of talk of various mechanics. What I haven't seen in any examples of actual knife disarms. My original Martial Art was Jujitsu and I have since studied Aikido and Judo. While not my school the following series of Videos I have found handy for showing my GMs what my character was doing. I do know that some people on this thread have touched on similar techniques but sometimes it's best to have visuals to go with mechanics.

Jujitsu knife Defense

OK first one looks like:

defensive parry to arm lock

to

force position change

to

grapple with a change of two handed to arm to on wrist and on hand on head

to

Grapple add leg (or knee to head) both hand to wrist

to

Disarm


second one (bit dark and we wrong side)

Defensive arm lock (now I can't decide if that's a two handed arm lock, or one handed with combo elbow strike to the inside elbow*)

to

forced posture change (maybe combo with adding a hand to the grapple is the fort move was a grapple and strike)

to

Two handed disarm (I guess, can't really see)


Third one

Same as the second, only it looks more like a arm-lock applied with pain to get the target to release the knife rather than a straight disarm.

Same question over weather that's a two handed arm lock or a one handed arm lock with elbow strike to joint combo*.

Sorry not really my area (there is second video in the link but I haven't looked at that)


*thing is since they are doing a display, strikes aren't going to be full speed/strength so the dividing line between grapple and strike blurs a bit.

And ultimately the difference between an arm lock that ends in injury to the arm, and a combo grapple and strike that ends in injury to the arm, is also blurry (in RL if not in GURPS).



Should of course say if it is grapple strike combo it not a defensive parry but more a wait and/stop hit etc, etc. And weather or not it's one handed grapple and them one handed strike, or a combo is a matter of time (but they look fast enough to be combos me)

Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-12-2014 at 03:23 AM.
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Old 12-12-2014, 03:06 AM   #67
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
and -2 on the relative to hit bonus of CA as well, for a net 0 to hit on CA:Determined, and a net -2 to hit on CA:Strong

However you target just has to change his facing before his attack relative facing is changed and it's no longer a wild swing to his side hex. The rules of changing facing are going to important here vis a vis what you do to your target..
But that's the point:
You can't use a strike or grapple when you CA, because then the opponent will be able to Retreat, and turn, while you're still outside Close Combat. But if you just use CA to step into his rear-left hex after he spent his step but before he Attacked you, he's stuck facing you with his left-rear side until your turn, after which you've got some opportunities.
So you Feint instead (or simply forego the opportunity to feint if some houserule changes the way Feints work).
Oh, and once your turn comes around, you can grapple his arm from the back side by stepping into his rear into Close Combat (his hex). Or Choke Hold. Or whatever. He still treats it as a runaround, but there are other benefits; and if he's got a greathelm with No Peripheral Vision, he can't benefit from runaround rules.
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Old 12-12-2014, 03:18 AM   #68
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
But that's the point:
You can't use a strike or grapple when you CA, because then the opponent will be able to Retreat, and turn, while you're still outside Close Combat.
What if you use the Step (or steps, but see current thread) in you CA to get into CC and then grapple stopping them from doing that. Although there's still the question of how facing works in CC (outside of TG)



Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
But if you just use CA to step into his rear-left hex after he spent his step but before he Attacked you, he's stuck facing you with his left-rear side until your turn, after which you've got some opportunities..
How would you do that between him stepping and him attacking you (unless you did if off a wait that triggered on him stepping but before he attacks)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
So you Feint instead (or simply forego the opportunity to feint if some houserule changes the way Feints work).
What are thinking here in terms of feinting?


We seem to have gown a bit beyond the original situation* here, nothing wrong with that of course just trying to clarify what we're now trying to do!

*Parry to Defensive arm lock with slip to get on the side hex before applying the arm lock with the bonuses of being a side attack and away from the knife side.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-12-2014 at 03:39 AM.
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Old 12-12-2014, 03:35 AM   #69
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
What if you use the Step (or steps, but see current thread) in you CA to get into CC and then grapple stopping them from doing that. Although there's still the question of how facing works in CC (outside of TG)
You can't get into a rear hex without stepping at least three hexes, and you can be parried at full Parry score when you try to enter CC and grapple.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
How would you do that between him stepping and him attacking you (unless you did if of a wait that triggered on him stepping but before he attacks)
The trigger is 'when he completed his Step and is about to Attack'. How precisely you need to call that trigger de jure is of secondary concern.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
What are thinking here in terms of feinting?
A Feint is a QC, not an attack->active_defence event. So no Retreat, and no risk of being Parried with a knife with a subsequent success at the cut-the-arm roll.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
*Parry to Defensive arm lock with slip to get on the side hex before applying the arm lock with the bonuses of being a side attack and away from the knife side.
I thought Arm Lock wasn't supposed to be the only solution. Anyway, 4 levels of Arm Lock is good here, and can be used for Deceptive Attack.
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Old 12-12-2014, 04:03 AM   #70
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
You can't get into a rear hex without stepping at least three hexes, and you can be parried at full Parry score when you try to enter CC and grapple.
No I know, but we weren't discussing rear hex and parry, but side hex and wild swings. We might be now, and that's fine but that's why I asked have we broadened it out, and what have we broadened it out too ;-)


Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
The trigger is 'when he completed his Step and is about to Attack'. How precisely you need to call that trigger de jure is of secondary concern.
Yep, and of course if he smart the target will turn to face you straight on when he moves, so even if you do make it a committed attack you can't move two hexes to his side facing and move into his hex to grapple in CC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
A Feint is a QC, not an attack->active_defence event. So no Retreat, and no risk of being Parried with a knife with a subsequent success at the cut-the-arm roll.
True but no attack either, you possibly get bonuses on the next one, but I'm not seeing how feint get you closer to grappling with side hex bonuses

You can step with a feint of course, but then your target has an extra chance to change his facing as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I thought Arm Lock wasn't supposed to be the only solution.
Its not but considering we're in thread about unarmed vs. knife, it it was suggested that staying away from, the knife hand while using defensive arm locks, it's a bit difficult to avoid it. Even if we forget the defensive arm lock, unless we're talking about SM+1 or kicking we're still taking about moving into CC.


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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Anyway, 4 levels of Arm Lock is good here, and can be used for Deceptive Attack.
Four levels of arm lock is indeed always good!
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