Higher Purposes. Purposii? Purpodes?

[Harald387]

Do Higher Purpose (Slay Demons) / (Slay Undead) work because the Holy Warrior thinks he's facing his chosen foe, or do they work any time he's facing the chosen foe, whether he knows it or not?

Example 1: Two demonic guardians wrapped in funeral linens spring from sarcophagi (sarcophaguses? sarcophages?) and attack. The party believes 'Mummies!' because that's the natural assumption. Does the Holy Warrior with HP: Slay Undead get his benefit?

Example 2: A succubus has taken human form and attacked the party for some reason; they have no idea she's a demon because they missed all the clues. Does the Holy Warrior with HP: Slay Demons get his benefit?

[Dalin]

Interesting question! I'm curious to hear how Kromm handles it.

Based on the text (Adventurers, p. 27), I could go either way.

The title of the ability, to me, implies that it is divinely granted and thus supernatural. This fits with the bulleted text about the actual mechanics which suggests that it only kicks in for actual monsters of that class. Imposters need not apply.

However, the first sentence of the description, "You’re a zealous foe of Evil," implies that it is based on your beliefs, so you could be tricked or duped. This interpretation allows for some dramatic reveals when the Holy Warrior figures out that the woman is a succubus and feels a surge of newfound strength. It is also more gameable by munchkins. I can imagine pairing a Holy Warrior (maybe with Gullible) with an Illusionist who makes all the monsters look like demons. (Are there mind control spells that could help here too?) Or you have the party's patron always explain that the enemies are demons in disguise: More demons pretending to be orcs! SLAY THEM ALL! In the right game, that could be hilarious and fun.

On balance, I would go with the first interpretation by default.

[malloyd]

I'd use the real situation. Because I really, really want to avoid situations where the players *insist* their character would believe something totally nonsensical in order to get a bonus.

And yes, this may occasionally mean the fact he's getting a bonus may tip the player off to something being a hated foe when it isn't obvious. I don't actually see that as a problem - your *entire life* is dedicated to fighting these things, sometimes if you actually start fighting them you can penetrate their disguises when other people would not is not exactly an out of character benefit here.

Edit: For the extreme version, think about how you want to cope with Higher Purpose (Thwart Demons) combined with Delusion (The sole goal of Demons is to make my life miserable and every challenge I face is their work).

[Yssa]

Originally Posted by malloyd

I don't actually see that as a problem - your *entire life* is dedicated to fighting these things, sometimes if you actually start fighting them you can penetrate their disguises when other people would not is not exactly an out of character benefit here.

I totally agree that tying it to the true nature of the disguised/misinterpreted foe is a feature, not a bug. If I've missed the clues that this corpse-looking thing is actually a construct, but then when I start poking with my halberd-of-undead-skewering and it doesn't do as much damage as it usually does against the zombies I so hate, that is just another helpful clue that I might pick up on if the heat of battle hasn't clouded my judgement.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by malloyd

I'd use the real situation. Because I really, really want to avoid situations where the players *insist* their character would believe something totally nonsensical in order to get a bonus.

Contrariwise, this leads to the weird situation of PCs "test slapping" folks to verify they aren't demons and similar shenanigans.

Is it too severe to require both the intent and the reality? PC has to think it is a demon and it has to really be one? The first allows you to call on your holy blessing, the second allows the blessing to actually work.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by martinl

Contrariwise, this leads to the weird situation of PCs "test slapping" folks to verify they aren't demons and similar shenanigans.

Is that a drawback? If your character is an obsessive loon who goes around attacking the landscape to check to see if those bushes are possessed, sparing them if it turns out they aren't, that doesn't seem inconsistent with the central goal of his life is to slay demons. By definition anybody with a Higher Purpose is at least a little unbalanced, if somebody wants to play the trait as somewhat more crazy than usual, why not? He may not *have* to, but he certainly can. "Sure people crazy or stupid enough to dress up as demons are prime fodder for demonic plots, but the rules of the Order don't actually forbid letting the ones that are *just* crazy or stupid live if it turns out they aren't corrupted yet. Maybe somebody else can still save them. I can't waste my time, there are actual demonic plots I need to go take care of."

[Harald387]

Originally Posted by martinl

Contrariwise, this leads to the weird situation of PCs "test slapping" folks to verify they aren't demons and similar shenanigans.

"THE POWER OF THOR COMPELS YOU!"
"Sir, this is a bakery."
"THE DEMONS WILL BE FOUND!"
"You've just put a hammer through the soufflé, sir."

[martinl]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Is that a drawback? If your character is an obsessive loon who goes around attacking the landscape to check to see if those bushes are possessed, sparing them if it turns out they aren't, that

... can be incredibly tedious.

Originally Posted by Harald387

"THE POWER OF THOR COMPELS YOU!"
"Sir, this is a bakery."
"THE DEMONS WILL BE FOUND!"
"You've just put a hammer through the soufflé, sir."

Yep. Funny once.

OK, OK, with the right group of peeps it might be hilarious.

But in my general experience, "active" enemy detection powers, that have unlimited use but require specific activation, are tedious in most RPGs. I prefer limited use or passive.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Is that a drawback? If your character is an obsessive loon who goes around attacking the landscape to check to see if those bushes are possessed, sparing them if it turns out they aren't, that doesn't seem inconsistent with the central goal of his life is to slay demons.

Exactly!

Also, I've now decided my Holy Warrior will have to slap someone at least once and declare he was "driving the demons from thee!"


I've also decided I need to heavily invest in Exorcism and the Perk Slap The Devil Out Of 'Em, so I can perform combat Exorcisms via backhands.

[Bruno]

Slap The Devil Out Of Them is a 12 point power-up :)

Behind the scenes: It buys off the -10 penalty for trying a task virtually instantly (one second) as a Hard Technique, and a perk for the Unique Technique