Vehicles and Weapons from Fantasy giving me problems

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kromm

'Fraid not. Fantasy was one of those early 4e titles that was planned when we were just finishing up the Basic Set and written while I was spending most of my time on Powers. Contrary to common myth, I wasn't personally checking much 4e content until after I was mostly done with Powers in summer 2005, and I wasn't reviewing every last thing in every last 4e publication until after I finished Martial Arts in autumn 2006. My main line-development duties up to then were (1) create an entirely new edition of the game and (2) write the first and arguably most vital pair of rules expansions. The managing editor was spelling me on line editor duty.

Is there a chance for at least a semi-official review and errata regarding these Fantasy pages? Not to the VDS level of precision, but just what glaring things should be changed and to what.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Is there a chance for at least a semi-official review and errata regarding these Fantasy pages? Not to the VDS level of precision, but just what glaring things should be changed and to what.

Not while I have other projects, no. Stats reviews eat time like nothing else, and if there's one thing I don't have, it's time. If there's a second thing I don't have, it's a secret design system for weapons and vehicles . . . I'd just be second-guessing Bill, not necessarily making things better. Perhaps once Low-Tech is done, we'll be able to retcon a future printing of Fantasy with relative ease.

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by Icelander

IWhat’s going on here? David Pulver is listed as a playtester, couldn’t he tell this was nonsense?

I was rather surprised to be credited as a playtester. I did contribute some material regarding Innate Attacks and Status, but had to drop out of the playtest after only a few days, before I read the entire manuscript. I remember liking the GM advice and getting into an argument with a playtester over black powder weapons or magic and warfare or something, realizing that wasn't helpful, and telling Bill I would have to unsubscribe.

Bill did ask me for suggestions on the black powder weapons, but at the time I had recently left SJ Games and was a fuil-time writer/editor at Guardians of Order and had absolutely zero free time. I think the only thing I was able to say was "I'm not sure it's wise to do heavy weapon stats when Vehicles/High Tech hadn't even been contracted, yet alone written" - I was kind of reluctant to lock myself in. Which of course wasn't very helpful!

[David L Pulver]

[QUOTE=Kromm] If there's a second thing I don't have, it's a secret design system for weapons and vehicles . . . /QUOTE]

Anyway, that would get in the way of people's creativity.

It's probably just as realistic to do what Hans does and research the stuff intensely using the real world numbers, anyway!

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Kromm

'Fraid not. Fantasy was one of those early 4e titles that was planned when we were just finishing up the Basic Set and written while I was spending most of my time on Powers. Contrary to common myth, I wasn't personally checking much 4e content until after I was mostly done with Powers in summer 2005, and I wasn't reviewing every last thing in every last 4e publication until after I finished Martial Arts in autumn 2006. My main line-development duties up to then were (1) create an entirely new edition of the game and (2) write the first and arguably most vital pair of rules expansions. The managing editor was spelling me on line editor duty.

I'll bet you were wasting time on eating, sleeping and other such nonessentials too.

Shame on you. ;)

Originally Posted by Kromm

Really, weapons and vehicles stats have to be guesses until suitable rules come out. High-Tech frames TL5-8 gear fairly well. Low-Tech will eventually do the same for TL0-4. Until then, Martial Arts is your best choice for low-tech gear, with an honorable mention to Dungeon Fantasy 1 for wild fantasy gear.

The Basic Set and Martial Arts are fine for low-tech gear, as far as it goes, but there is little or nothing about vehicles and vehicular weapons for TL0-TL4.

Given that many fantasy scenarios include things like galleys ramming each other in Roma Arcana, intrepid Vikings sailing their longships to America and perhaps fighting Things Man Was Not Meant To Know at Roanoke, and/or Age of Sail pirates sailing On Stranger Tides; this is rather uncomfortable.

If I felt that the examples given in Fantasy were at least internally consistent and consistent with the rest of the GURPS lineup, I could use them as some kind of base line. While they feature a Caribbean pirate cutter that's slower than a fishing boat and a galleon as the fastest non-fantasy vessel, I have trouble relying on them. And a weapon table that includes Acc 9 primative unguided rockets appears to be all but useless, at least until I know what parts of it are errors.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by David L Pulver

I was rather surprised to be credited as a playtester. I did contribute some material regarding Innate Attacks and Status, but had to drop out of the playtest after only a few days, before I read the entire manuscript. I remember liking the GM advice and getting into an argument with a playtester over black powder weapons or magic and warfare or something, realizing that wasn't helpful, and telling Bill I would have to unsubscribe.

Bill did ask me for suggestions on the black powder weapons, but at the time I had recently left SJ Games and was a fuil-time writer/editor at Guardians of Order and had absolutely zero free time. I think the only thing I was able to say was "I'm not sure it's wise to do heavy weapon stats when Vehicles/High Tech hadn't even been contracted, yet alone written" - I was kind of reluctant to lock myself in. Which of course wasn't very helpful!

So how busy are you now? Can you at least make educated comments regarding the quotes and comments by Icelander?

[Kromm]

I really can't say it any plainer than this: "If your fantasy game needs TL0-4 vehicles, you'll have to wait for Low-Tech." Bill made a valiant effort to cover this ground, but he was hamstrung by not having access to the final stats for vehicles that went into the Basic Set, much less a peek at the stats going into High-Tech and Ultra-Tech for comparison . . . never mind nonexistent design rules. So now we wait. With apologies to those annoyed by this admission, those of us on the inside didn't think that all or even most fantasy would need vehicles, so we didn't prioritize such content.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Molokh

So how busy are you now?

David has many, many projects in the works, and is probably very busy. More important, he has no secret knowledge of what would be "good" vehicle or weapon stats here. Design rules in those areas aren't in anything like their final state as yet.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Kromm

David has many, many projects in the works, and is probably very busy. More important, he has no secret knowledge of what would be "good" vehicle or weapon stats here. Design rules in those areas aren't in anything like their final state as yet.

Understood.

What David and you would be capable of doing, however, is making sure that the numbers you arrive at through research fit with the internal logic of GURPS and there are no glaring contradictions.

But I understand that your time is limited and that SJ Games priorities are different from mine. I don't like it, but I understand. ;)

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I really can't say it any plainer than this: "If your fantasy game needs TL0-4 vehicles, you'll have to wait for Low-Tech."

Said waiting would be much easier if one actually had any idea when that fabled tome of Ice, Cabarets and Chicks would appear. I mean, in the time we've been waiting, Obama has gone from an obscure Senator to President of the United States. Surely whipping up a role-playing book can be accomplished as well. ;)

Originally Posted by Kromm

So now we wait. With apologies to those annoyed by this admission, those of us on the inside didn't think that all or even most fantasy would need vehicles, so we didn't prioritize such content.

I accept your apologies and understand that we must of course defer to the judgment of the professionals involved in the design decisions.

In my personal experience, every game (fantasy or not) eventually involves travel by means of a vehicle. And every time this happens, it's an even chance that some player will ask the question: 'Can I sink/burn/blow it up?' ;)

That being said, is there a chance of a Pyramid article on the subject, just to tide us over? As long as we had about ten basic ship designs, it would be easy enough to modify them slightly to represent nearly any vessel one could need.

A PDF supplement would be even better, of course, but that's much more unlikely. It would also be a significant amount of work, while the Pyramid article could be done in a couple of days by someone with a nice library and a solid backing in GURPS.