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Old 07-25-2018, 12:01 PM   #31
The Wyzard
 
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Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Facing

Something - the major thing, really - that I like about TFT is the tightness of its tolerances. "Small" choices can make a very big difference. A fighter with ST 9 DX 11 IQ 11 is actually probably sharply different from a fighter with ST 11 DX 11 IQ 9. In D&D or T&T those differences are nearly invisible. In TFT they're big!

A one-hex difference in movement can be the difference between some hyperactive trash-goblin stabbing in you in the kidney versus being out in front of your sword and shield where you want him.

So, in short, I am okay with being able to run around into somebody's rear hex if they don't watch out and plan things. I've done boffer combat and unarmed martial arts; I honestly don't think it's that even that unrealistic. I saw more than a few people get blindsided by the giant foam hammer this one dude had*, or caught in a footwork feint by a more agile opponent.


*We had one player who was bigger and stronger than anyone else in the group by a wide margin, and he made this enormous foam hammer, like the size of a bass drum. It was hysterically cartoonish, and sort of like getting hit by a dump truck made out of pillows. Not very fast, bore no resemblance to real-world anything, but funny when it caught one of the little guys.
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Old 07-25-2018, 03:28 PM   #32
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Facing

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Originally Posted by The Wyzard View Post
I've done boffer combat and unarmed martial arts; I honestly don't think it's that even that unrealistic. I saw more than a few people get blindsided.
People will get blindsided during the confusing and chaotic melee, even with the change. It is mainly a change for that first closing that it matters. And I have done all of the above to, and never, not even once seen two fighters close in on each other and one of them got blindsided with the first combo or first attack. Not even when one of the fighters could hardly stand because of leg bruising and having an effective movement of like 2. They still managed to turn or at least keep their eye on the opponent. In reality, movement is simultaneous and being flanked and not react to it or even turn 60 degrees is unusual, to say the least.

Have you ever seen an MMA fighter start a round with a combo that the other guy couldn't defend against because he was hit in the back or the side?

The only example I can think of that comes close is this. And that is more weapon skill and good choreography than movement timing I would say. :-)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61jiwHn_-vs
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Old 07-25-2018, 04:01 PM   #33
Jack O'All Trades
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Facing

Keep in mind the 5 second turns. It isn't "one guy is walking up and the other runs by him and stabs him in the back." It's "one guy over stepped and made himself ineffective by slipping or not being ready/one guy is much more agile and is able to twist the enemy around and get his flank."

I've seen this happen in both one on one and group fighting situations in martial arts scenarios, larp fighting, and humans vs zombies. Fencing doesn't allow for it but I've seen some poor footwork vs skilled fencers result in things that I would consider similar given the abstraction. I think I've seen it most in HvZ where actually approaching and engaging is scariest to the players and there's a more realistic sense of "fog of war", followed by martial arts in 'self defense' scenarios. :)

You're right that the hexes are an abstraction that introduce some oddness but given that the whole movement is an abstraction I don't think this is a breaking point for me.

What's not clear to me is how one could get attacked in the back against less than 3 opponents in your modification. At worst it is a side attack when facing two enemies.
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Old 07-25-2018, 05:07 PM   #34
Wayne
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Geelong, Australia
Default Re: Facing

See this house rule for an alternative
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Old 07-26-2018, 01:56 AM   #35
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Facing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post

If you allow figures to change facing after movement, then side/rear situations would almost never occur unless someone gets surrounded.
This is a valid argument. It is not that strange getting attacked in the back in the middle of a chaotic melee, maybe even if you are not surrounded in some way. A general lack of perception when a lot is going on can definitiely account for that. But since we have 100% knowledge in all other things when we make decisions like exact range for missile or thrown attacks, we can calculate the exact trajectory and see who we need to roll to miss and not, even before we even move to the new position. We can optimize area effects, we know exactly how the terraine will affect us when we move. We know when reinforcement arrives at the other end of the melee or when someone exits a large shadow on the other side that is out of LOS, etc.

Personally as a GM I often let it slip, or if players act on information that they definitely shouldn't have automatically I let them roll to see it, or hear their allies call it out if they see it.

I don't really see why facing should be excluded and turned into a 100% sure knowledge thing. Like, I know if I step around these guys I will be able to attack that other guy over there in the side and he will never, ever, see me coming.

So even in a grand melee I prefer the somewhat accurate knowledge that if I get over there and flank that enemy, me or my flanking buddy would get an advantage.

But I agree with your argument. After the initial turns when everything is chatotic it will be less calculations and more realistic to be attacked in the side or back without being surrounded.
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Old 07-26-2018, 02:24 AM   #36
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Facing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne View Post
See this house rule for an alternative
It is a good system for certain kind of games, but it is sooooo slow.

We use this house rule to speed things up since people don't have to spend so much time making sure that they can't be side or backstabbed, even in a one on one situation. That time is better spent on more realistic tactical options or maybe better yet, speed up the play over all.

It works great for single player computer games, where the waiting for others is almost non existant and you can step, update, step, update, etc. It should give a very fluid and realistic feeling.
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Old 07-26-2018, 02:49 AM   #37
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Facing

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Originally Posted by Jack O'All Trades View Post
Keep in mind the 5 second turns. It isn't "one guy is walking up and the other runs by him and stabs him in the back." It's "one guy over stepped and made himself ineffective by slipping or not being ready/one guy is much more agile and is able to twist the enemy around and get his flank...
... the whole movement is an abstraction I don't think this is a breaking point for me.

What's not clear to me is how one could get attacked in the back against less than 3 opponents in your modification. At worst it is a side attack when facing two enemies.
Mistakes like slipping or making an attack and over extending is not a tactical decision it is missed attack or fumbled parry (in TFT a lucky crit for the opponent). Not something you should be able as a player to count yourself out of. Those things are what die rolls are for.

Movement is an abstraction, but why not keep it less abstract and more realistic if we can, especially if it is faster and easier?

And you are right, usually you don't get stabbed in the back. You usually get the choice to give one or two of your attackers a side attack. Especially if you yourself want to attack in a third direction. I think it is good enough that people will search for the tactical advantage which is good, and not devastating enough that one mistake in counting hexes will kill your char.

And even when I have trained martial arts and practiced to fight several opponents (usually very hard and not something I practiced often). It was pretty easy to move around to avoid having one opponent squarely in my back. You turned and shifted and tried to get through any opening they left in between them in order to get them all more or less in front of you. And in the end, if they coordinated and timed their attacks one would get you in the side.

With no chance of correcting your facing it would mean that every other turn when you face two people they would win initiative and get you in the back, even if you shift around. And that is waaay to often in my experience. You can almost always keep two attackers in your field of vision and mostly in front (now and then one would get you in the side) of you as long as you can move a little bit.
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Old 09-08-2018, 10:20 PM   #38
platimus
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: behind you
Default Re: Facing

Nils,
I like your way. Declaring Facing at the end of all movement seems more realistic to me. It makes more sense to me and I think it would to most beginners as well. It's more intuitive. I honestly can't believe that more don't agree and that it isn't the rule already. There's NO WAY someone is going to get to my rear if (1)I can see them coming and (2)I'm not out-numbered...unless I'm drugged or already injured or something. It takes nothing away from the game, IMO.

We'll just have to house-rule it!
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Old 09-09-2018, 05:49 AM   #39
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Facing

At least I think this should be an optional rule, for those that wants a simpler and faster way. Just like there probably should be an optional rule for simpler adjDX turn order for those that doesn't write down initiative lists and constantly updates them.

Alt1.
After all movement is done, the side that moved first may change their facing.

Alt2.
After all movement is done, the side that moved first may change their facing by 60 degrees.

It will solve a hole bunch of problems. Open up for higher MA than 12ish without it being OP. Going against or along the hex grain won't be a problem. Lessening the need for new players to count all the time. And it won't scare away new players when their character gets stabbed in the back and dies because of a seemingly "gamey exploit". And the tactical choice of going first or second will more be an issue of where to engage the enemy, where to find advantageous ground and group our characters correctly and not to find a back stab or avoid a backstab exploit.

And once people gets the hang of things, can count hexes fast and wants the extra tactical challenge by not being able to change their facing, they can play with the normal rules.
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Old 09-12-2018, 08:21 AM   #40
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: Facing

I think the scenario everyone dislikes is that someone runs forward, then the other guy runs around him and attacks from the side. But maybe people are OK if someone gets mugged because someone he didn't know about charged him from behind.

If you wanted to ban the first and not the second then you could have a rule that first side to move gets a free rotate to follow someone who started their movement to their front, or if they make a 3/IQ roll to realise someone's coming up behind them. It might take a bit of thought and some technical writing skills to make it clear but it would probably work.
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