Yrth pagans

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

Sure, that explanation (with less detail) is offered as a possibility in Banestorm and is mentioned in my initial post.
But this thread is intended to discuss alternatives to the 'official' explanations (officially suggested explanations, really).

I'm looking for scenarios that do not involve the Banestorm grabbing alternate Earth pagans or grabbing pagans from before the 11th century AD.

Then you'd need to assume that de-Paganisation went much slower than most historians would acknowledge. If you have a larger than realised Norse Pagan population in Greenland, and stubbord Pictish and Gaelic Pagans in Northern Scotland, and assume that both groups lost unsubstainably high numbers of people durring the Banestorm, then the pagans get swept under history's rug. All of that is vaugely plasible, our fine historical detail for Greenland and Northern Scotland in the period is weak, and sudden population shifts via the Banestorm would create the illusion of an earlier conversion.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

The authors referred to Celts.


But one could play around that that, sure.

As noted above, I don't feel bound by canon. It's just a starting point and handy set of references

The Celts refered to generally seem to be Scots and Highlanders. There were Norse speaking villages in Scotland in the 17th century. According to tradition Odin appeared as a gigantic raven about the time of the reformation in Scotland and demanded worship and was sent packing by Protestant minsiters. Which I suppose is a politicised retalling of an older story.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

The Celts refered to generally seem to be Scots and Highlanders. There were Norse speaking villages in Scotland in the 17th century. According to tradition Odin appeared as a gigantic raven about the time of the reformation in Scotland and demanded worship and was sent packing by Protestant minsiters. Which I suppose is a politicised retalling of an older story.

Well Scotch Presbyterians always were a rather pugnacious folk. I can see why Odin would be afraid of them...

In any case there was a lot of Norse influence in Scotland. The Lords of the Isles deferred to the King of Norway rather then the King of Scots for a long time. This was changed by the normal custom of both Norse and Highlanders with regard to such matters.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

Yrth has Buddhists, Hellenic mystery religion pagans, skeptics/irreligious types, adherents/students of the Eternal, etc.

Just to be clear, all of those except the irreligious count as 'pagans,' if not 'Pagans,' no?

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by martinl

Just to be clear, all of those except the irreligious count as 'pagans,' if not 'Pagans,' no?

I think in this context it is meant to mean "animists and polytheists, especially of the antique and medieval variety".

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by martinl

Just to be clear, all of those except the irreligious count as 'pagans,' if not 'Pagans,' no?

Arguably, yes. I'm simply distinguishing them from Norse/Celtic/Wiccan pagans.



If a skeptic or agnostic came from a Christian or Muslim background, as most presumbly do, he'd be a heretic or an apostate.

Tredroy has some info on 'agnostics.'

But skeptics could also be 'pagans.' I recall some 'godless' men mentioned in Norse (Icelandic, I think?) literature. Men who didn't necessarily deny the existence of the gods, but just didn't pray to them. One of the several Icelanders , Danes, or other Norsemen here on the boards probably knows more about that.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

I think in this context it is meant to mean "animists and polytheists, especially of the antique and medieval variety".

Antique and medieval European variety, specifically celtic and norse. Otherwise nearly every non-Abrahamic religion is still "Pagan" with the capital P.

By the by, lumping in whatever the Celts did (and if separate, whatever the druids did, and whatever the pre-celtic bretons did) with what the Norse did is still pretty bad as far as conflating two pretty unrelated things.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Antique and medieval European variety, specifically celtic and norse. Otherwise nearly every non-Abrahamic religion is still "Pagan" with the capital P.

By the by, lumping in whatever the Celts did (and if separate, whatever the druids did, and whatever the pre-celtic bretons did) with what the Norse did is still pretty bad as far as conflating two pretty unrelated things.

Indeed.
I’ll go you one further, if we are picking at labels.
:()

'European' is little more than a vague geographic label. Europe is only a continent by courtesy, because Greek mapmakers had an unclear set of ideas about continental landmasses.

'Europeans' don't really exist.
French, Swedes, Basques, English, Scots, Czechs, Poles, Greeks, Sardinians, Finns, Russians, etc. -- all those peoples do exist. But the only thing that unites them all is their Christian heritage. The Roman Empire doesn't count because it didn't rule all of Europe, and it had many territories outside Europe. Indo-European languages don't count because some European peoples speak other tongues, and many peoples in SW Asia and South Asia also speak Indo-European languages. Even if you try to claim Hellenic or Roman culture as ‘Europeanizing’ influences, you’d be confronted with the undeniable fact that the Christian Church spread those ideas across the northern and far eastern parts of the realm.

'Europe' is just a latter day way of saying 'the portion of Christendom that sticks out west of the Urals and north of the Middle Sea.'
What does this have to do with Yrth?

I don’t think anyone on Yrth cares about ideas like ‘Europe.’ It wasn’t an important concept during the major Banestorm activity periods (although it had just begun to catch on in the 16th Century when the Aralaise ancestors showed up.)Yrth’s geography is different, and transported humans have been living there for a thousand years.

The Nomad Lands are way up north. It may be that everyone south of the wall considers those lands ‘the North’ and the people there ‘Northmen.’ Maybe a few Megalan scholars of paganism pick through reports of Northern cults and try to figure out which benighted heathen lands of Old Earth spawned the antecedents of said cults, but I doubt most people care at all.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Antique and medieval European variety, specifically celtic and norse. Otherwise nearly every non-Abrahamic religion is still "Pagan" with the capital P.

By the by, lumping in whatever the Celts did (and if separate, whatever the druids did, and whatever the pre-celtic bretons did) with what the Norse did is still pretty bad as far as conflating two pretty unrelated things.

Whether or not Oriental religions are referred to as pagan varies depending on the circle you are in. Buddhism is clearly a different form of religion, and though some village shamaning is rather similar to animism the same can be said for Irish leaving bread for Fair Folk long after they are clearly Catholics and would certainly call themselves so.

Polytheism and animism tended to have a looser and less obvious connection it's base culture's philosophical beliefs. For instance Platonistic paganism was not a serious concept for a long time and for much of Greek and Roman history the philosophers and the priests more or less went their separate ways.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Whether or not Oriental religions are referred to as pagan varies depending on the circle you are in. Buddhism is clearly a different form of religion, and though some village shamaning is rather similar to animism the same can be said for Irish leaving bread for Fair Folk long after they are clearly Catholics and would certainly call themselves so.

Polytheism and animism tended to have a looser and less obvious connection it's base culture's philosophical beliefs. For instance Platonistic paganism was not a serious concept for a long time and for much of Greek and Roman history the philosophers and the priests more or less went their separate ways.

Which neatly brings me to the Hellenic/Roman cults in Megalos.

I think it's okay to move on to that rather than create a new thread.

Dear Mods,
If that isn't kosher, please let me know.


I like the idea that Simon Menelaus had something to do with creating these, a possibility suggested in Banestorm.

I don't see them as direct continuations of Roman or Greek cults.