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Old 12-27-2012, 10:28 PM   #191
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: Yrth pagans

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Not necessarily. There is, for example, plenty of historical evidence of miracles and other supernatural stuff, even if we mostly reject the validity of that evidence. There is a difference between believing that a documented, historical event was caused by a divine being and believing that certain historical events did not occur.
That's also usually how more or less religious magic is seen in Ärth. Apart from the subtle stuff (a small bonus here or a penalty there, to some skill or attribute roll, or similar), nobody denies that X happened because X is bloody obvious. Instead, people argue over (and kill each other over) what caused X. Was it a benign pagan god, or an act of the Devil? And so forth...

Nobody denies that Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead after 3 days. It wasn't a unique event anyway (the average number of people coming back from the dead as actually alive, rather than as Undead, might be anywhere from 0.3 to 6 per century per Continent - I haven't quite made up my mind yet).

The argument is over what kind of magic caused it. The Christians have one interpretation. The Jews and Moslems each have a slightly different one. And pagans generally assume it was done by secular magic.

Multiple supernatural forces are acknowledged to exist; so the issue isn't whether to acknowledge their existence or not (if that's where someone is, then GURPS has a perfect adequate game mechanic called the Delusion disadvantage), but what values you ascribe to them. Which ones do you find good and/or wholesome, and which ones are evil and/or contrary to the natural order of things?

Yrth seems to differ from this, with almost all magic being secular, whereas Ärth, and also Ars Magica's setting called Mythic Europe, have both secular (learnable) magic and also clearly religious magic. Possibly that option was chosen to minimize controversy?
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:31 PM   #192
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Default Re: Yrth pagans

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Maybe they banned you for getting off topic?

;)
Perhaps more importantly (not that I have any such assumptions about the "moderators" here), for not contributing usefully? I often find Flyndaran's posts to be very interesting and thought-provoking, but I have to say I don't think he has contributed much useful material to this thread, whereas I maintain that my own musings from my work on my Ärth setting does have some relevance and utility to those who do historical fantasy in other settings, such as Yrth or Mythic Europe (or a GURPS historical with magic added in).
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:35 PM   #193
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Default Re: Yrth pagans

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Getting back on topic-- the Greco-Roman cults of Megalos and Tredroy (and possibly other places) seem pretty fun to me.

I like the idea suggested in Banestorm that these cults have some sort of link to Simon Menelaus.


What do you guys make of them?

Anybody used them in a Banestorm game? Or something similiar in a different setting?
I didn't know anything about Simon Menelaus until you mentioned him, but it does seem as if he might be useful to my Ärth setting, as a past reference point. The rebellious rabbi Solomon ben Melchior certainly needs to have an opinion on Menelaus, it seems, or at least that which was the larger issue during Menelaus' time.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:47 PM   #194
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Default Re: Yrth pagans

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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
Yrth seems to differ from this, with almost all magic being secular, whereas Ärth, and also Ars Magica's setting called Mythic Europe, have both secular (learnable) magic and also clearly religious magic. Possibly that option was chosen to minimize controversy?
Note that Yrth has magic that people, in-universe, believe to be religious. It's just that from the perspective of out-of-universe people (players and GMs), it cannot be proven to be quantifiably different from secular magic. I think that it's left to individual groups to decide whether gods or a god are behind it or not.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:49 PM   #195
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Default Re: Yrth pagans

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I find it hard to imagine adherents to non-scripital religions being dogmatic, since they don't have a scripture to be dogmatic about. Note that dogmaticism is a subset of fanaticism, and that there are plenty of non-dogmatic ways to be religiously fanatical.
Arrogant, authoritarial figures can serve the same role. Anyone who has a differnent opinion about god X than shaman Y had better be ready for a showdown of power between the two, sort of thing.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:52 PM   #196
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Default Re: Yrth pagans

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Personally, I don't have any problem believing that a magic-user or an alien could be skeptical about other strange things. Lets say you don't believe in ghosts, but you do believe that men can walk on the Moon, with proper preparation and equipment. Both of these would be equally fantastic to many 19th century skeptics.

Go through your day, and think about all the things you do that would be seen as sorcery or a miracle by a 13th century monk. Things like this.
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This. I had the ancient astronaut vampire magician from a Martian pyramid give the slightest sigh and explain with a patient and earnest manner that comes only after millennia of existence that no, his people did not build the Face on Mars at Cydonia. "It is an entirely natural phenomenon of light and shadow discovered when my forebears first arrived on this lonely sphere untold eons ago and one of a mystical, superstitious bent adopted it as their symbol. As you can see the portions of my ceremonial helm that follow its outline have no actual function whatsoever."
I finally started Malazan, Book of the Fallen, and it has characters that are perceived as being Gods by the masses, but whose personal religious convictions are decidedly and ironically agnostic.

Just because some people believe that a given level of power is 'godlike' doesn't mean that everyone has to share that belief or that characters at that level have to agree.
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:18 PM   #197
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Default Re: Yrth pagans

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I find it hard to imagine adherents to non-scripital religions being dogmatic, since they don't have a scripture to be dogmatic about. .
If they don't have a scripture, they'll soon develop an oral tradition.
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:13 AM   #198
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Default Re: Yrth pagans

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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
I didn't know anything about Simon Menelaus until you mentioned him, but it does seem as if he might be useful to my Ärth setting, as a past reference point. The rebellious rabbi Solomon ben Melchior certainly needs to have an opinion on Menelaus, it seems, or at least that which was the larger issue during Menelaus' time.
Just to be clear--

Simon Menelaus is a fictional character created for Gurps Fantasy/Yrth, not a historical person from the real world.

But I wouldn't let that stop you from using him or someone like him in Arth. A 'hermetic' or clerkly tradition wizard with a fondness of the old pagan civilization of Rome and a large dose of political ambition could be an interesting character.
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:15 AM   #199
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Default Re: Yrth pagans

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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
Perhaps more importantly (not that I have any such assumptions about the "moderators" here), for not contributing usefully? I often find Flyndaran's posts to be very interesting and thought-provoking, but I have to say I don't think he has contributed much useful material to this thread, whereas I maintain that my own musings from my work on my Ärth setting does have some relevance and utility to those who do historical fantasy in other settings, such as Yrth or Mythic Europe (or a GURPS historical with magic added in).

I think the Arth stuff is relevant, for sure.
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