[Sorcery] Create and "X to Y" spells

[Michael Thayne]

Of all the spells in GURPS Magic, the Create spells are some of the most famously difficult to convert to Sorcery or any other "magic as powers" system. That's because they let you permanently create stuff out of thin air, for just the FP cost, which potentially breaks a world's economics. Powers balances similar abilities by imposing a character point cost for permanent creation. But this makes the spells far from straightforward to convert to Sorcery. Spells like "Earth to Stone" can present similar issues, if the final form is more valuable than the starting form. I can think of several solutions:

1) Use the Powers approach as-is, thus requiring a character point cost. Not all canonical examples of Sorcery spells convert the standard magic spells exactly.
2) Declare some substances to be free. This seems like the best approach for Create Air. It might work for Create Earth. It's arguable for Create Water, since in many places the cost of tap water is negligible (at least in the quantities Create Water would create), though of course the spell is mostly useful in areas where you don't have access to tap water. Obviously doesn't work for all cases.
2a) Set the official threshold for "basically free" at 0.01% of campaign starting wealth per casting. This makes it hard to make a living with repeated castings of Create, especially if FP costs are imposed (as opposed to using alternate rituals), since resting to recover FP takes time.
3) Use the Dungeon Fantasy approach of making many Create spells non-permanent, but give them a longer duration than 10 seconds.
3a) Decide that allowing Extended Duration (non-permanent) is a fair trade for losing the ability to stabilize creations.
3b) Use Cosmic. This requires an additional decision about what level of cosmic is necessary, but I'd be fine with +50%.
4) Don't convert the spell.
5) Something I missed. Any suggestions?

Thoughts? I'm pretty sure (2) is the right approach for Create Air. I'm tempted to use (3) for other things, though I'm not sure about whether Cosmic should be required and what level of cosmic if so. I could be persuaded on (1) or (4). And would be happy to hear suggestions for approaches I've missed.

[Refplace]

I am good with #2 and #3 on case by case basis, Divine Favor actually leans this way with its Feed the Masses spells.
another approach, similar to what is suggested for the Create and Snatcher powers is the PC needs to buy enough Wealth to cover the creations. That can still wreck an economy based on substances that could be created but covers PC abuse which is IMO the major factor.
Economy abuse can be handled by making mages who do this rare.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Refplace

I am good with #2 and #3 on case by case basis, Divine Favor actually leans this way with its Feed the Masses spells.
another approach, similar to what is suggested for the Create and Snatcher powers is the PC needs to buy enough Wealth to cover the creations. That can still wreck an economy based on substances that could be created but covers PC abuse which is IMO the major factor.
Economy abuse can be handled by making mages who do this rare.

The Divine Favor approach I think is really something quite distinct, which I didn't mention because I don't think it fits the flavor of Sorcery. For divinely-empowered heroes, the GM can role-pay the god as basically viewing anything that would be game mechanically abusive as "not why the god gave you this power". You don't really have that rationale with Sorcery.

[Michael Thayne]

I'm actually puzzled by why, in the DFRPG, Create Earth is non-permanent but Earth to Stone is permanent. Earth to Stone can turn common clay into less-common metals, and that's the part that breaks the economy. Create Earth by itself doesn't seem economy breaking–or am I missing something?

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

I'm actually puzzled by why, in the DFRPG, Create Earth is non-permanent but Earth to Stone is permanent. Earth to Stone can turn common clay into less-common metals, and that's the part that breaks the economy. Create Earth by itself doesn't seem economy breaking–or am I missing something?

"Permanent" just means 'doesn't need maintaining, only suspended by no-mana zones, can't be dispelled by simple dispels'. It means the spell is still running, and thus can be undone. Thus Earth to Stone creates stone (or metal) that can be undone by the right counter, that reverts to earth in a no-mana zone (and back to stone when taken out), and so on. Probably not the kind of stone you want to build bridges out of, nor the type of steel you want your sword to be forged from.

That said, in DFRPG, Earth to Stone is 'instantaneous', and thus undispellable, but the transformation only lasts a day.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

The Divine Favor approach I think is really something quite distinct, which I didn't mention because I don't think it fits the flavor of Sorcery.

Certainly, you wouldn't want the same tweaks on Create that Divine Favor uses. But I think Refplace's point was that the build in Divine Favor does suggest that such tweaks are possible, and balanced.

For a Sorcery version of the Feed the Masses build, I'd make it so that you had to maintain the "Create Food and Drink" spell (that is, keep it "slotted", not pay 1 FP a minute for it!) for an hour after someone ate the food. If you stopped maintaining it, or someone cast Dispel Magic on them within that hour, the meal would effectively vanish, leaving them hungry again.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Rupert

That said, in DFRPG, Earth to Stone is 'instantaneous', and thus undispellable, but the transformation only lasts a day.

Whoops. I think I got "Earth to Stone" and "Stone to Earth" mixed up.

Unrelated: I'm leaning towards "Cosmic is unnecessary, but can't spend points to stabilize" for Create Earth, Earth to Stone, etc. Thoughts on this?