Melee combat: Can boxing use brass knuckles to parry edged weapons?

Caomhin the Celt · 06-01-2009, 07:35 PM

The title says it all. Well, almost.

I GM a campaign where one of the players created a professional boxer. He swears up and down that since brass knuckles are listed under melee weapons, that he can use them to parry edged weapons and does not suffer the failed unarmed parry penalties. [B376] In addition, he also believes that if someone wielding a weapon parries his punches, he isn't susceptible to the attack against the limb of the unarmed attacker. (again, [B376])

I believe that brass knuckles only allow boxing to do more damage. They are not a weapon unto themselves, and thus do not negate the penalties for an unarmed parry against a weapon and vice versa. Part of my argument is that in both cases, (unarmed parries and parries against unarmed) the weapon attack is resolved against the limb of the unarmed, rather than the hand. Another part is that brass knuckles are not physically large enough to successfully parry (or block a parry) of an edged weapon like a sword or rapier or such. If they were gauntlet sized, yes.

Any input would be appreciated.

Hannes665 · 06-01-2009, 07:44 PM

Well I think basic Brass knuckles do only provide damage bonus.

You dont parry with your fists, you either deflect the blow or attack with your arms or palms and the Brass knuckles only cover the front of the fist.

Parrying lets say a sword with barehands require you to parry the attacking hand not the weapon, I recall it being -3 to parry but I could be wrong, dont have Martial Arts nor Basic sets handy.

I would rule that Brass knuckles dont assist in swinging parries BUT it is possible at lesser penalties in thrusting attcks by using the fist to block the attacks at -2 instead of -3. But I will bet that most responses here will disagree with that last observation.

PS: I am on heavy painkillers after a operation on my left arm so this post may not make as much sense when I read it again in the morning! :P

Ulzgoroth · 06-01-2009, 07:49 PM

I can't imagine how you could hope to parry anything with your knuckles, and the notion that your opponent is parrying your knuckles or any part of your hand is far-fetched. Parries against thrusting attacks aren't directed at the tip of the weapon.

If you want a protected hand, get a gauntlet. The brass knuckles might keep you from hurting yourself punching armor or a shield, but that's about it.

Kazander · 06-01-2009, 08:20 PM

I'd go so far as to give it a 1-2 on a d6 chance of helping while using an aggressive parry, but not a normal one. They might also help protect yourself when punching armor or a shield, as Ulzgoroth suggested. But that's it.

Crakkerjakk · 06-01-2009, 08:44 PM

Have him wrap a folded sheet of paper around his knuckles and then try to parry you whacking at his torso with a paper towel tube. If he can catch them all on the piece of paper, he's right. If you hit his arms a bunch, you're right.

Mr_Sandman · 06-01-2009, 09:00 PM

If it was a very cinematic game, I might allow a player to spend points on a "parry with brass knuckles" technique.

But that's only because I saw a fight scene on a TV show one where a character used a pair of handcuff gripped like brass knuckles to parry against a knife, then sock the bad guy in the jaw. (Might have been the blonde on "Chuck") I thought it was a cool scene, and would encourage a player in an over the top, cinematic campaign to try something like that.

In a realistic campaign, I wouldn't go for it.

Wraithe · 06-01-2009, 09:16 PM

I kinda see where he's coming from, he's talking about counterattacking to parry, striking with his (protected) knuckles to parry.

I would allow it only as an All Out Defense. He's using up his attacks to strike the incoming weapon (with the assumption that the BK will hit the weapon.
If he parries normally, he takes the damage. So, if he's willing to lose his attacks he can AOD, otherwise he takes his chances(see below).

Reason: Boxers don't block with their fists, they move them in the way of an attack. Which is great when you're padded, or taking blows from fists. The other method is hunkering in and "shrugging" off hits. Neither of these is going to fare well against melee weapons.

As far as the ignoring damage if someone parries HIS attacks due to brass knuckles?

Tell him "nice try" & give him directions to "Honest Akhillus' House Of Cestii". It'd be about the same as someone arguing that because they were using a rock in their fist as a weapon. If he wants to heavily armor his primary striking arm, he's in business, otherwise - No Dice.

DouglasCole · 06-01-2009, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman

(Might have been the blonde on "Chuck")

It was. She was fighting, um...the spanish chick.

Wraithe · 06-01-2009, 09:25 PM

Ok, I've thought about it for 2 minutes more. I still stick with AOD - if you want to be nice. If you want to "realistic" - I would suggest B400 Attacking Weapons. That's what he wants to do.

So in the interests of strict realism, I'd say "no soap" on the first one too, unless you're feeling generous.

OTOH, the Attacking Weapons option gives him a decent chance to disarm his foe or cause their weapon to become unready, where he can follow up with a off-hand attack, which seems VERY boxer-style.

Xplo · 06-01-2009, 09:31 PM

In a cinematic game, I'd let someone parry weapons with brass knuckles. In a realistic game, no.

Either way, if someone parried his punch with a weapon, I'd have them take damage to the limb as usual. If someone's punching you, you parry their arm, not their fist...

06-01-2009, 07:35 PM	#1
Caomhin the Celt Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Foothills of North Carolina	Melee combat: Can boxing use brass knuckles to parry edged weapons? The title says it all. Well, almost. I GM a campaign where one of the players created a professional boxer. He swears up and down that since brass knuckles are listed under melee weapons, that he can use them to parry edged weapons and does not suffer the failed unarmed parry penalties. [B376] In addition, he also believes that if someone wielding a weapon parries his punches, he isn't susceptible to the attack against the limb of the unarmed attacker. (again, [B376]) I believe that brass knuckles only allow boxing to do more damage. They are not a weapon unto themselves, and thus do not negate the penalties for an unarmed parry against a weapon and vice versa. Part of my argument is that in both cases, (unarmed parries and parries against unarmed) the weapon attack is resolved against the limb of the unarmed, rather than the hand. Another part is that brass knuckles are not physically large enough to successfully parry (or block a parry) of an edged weapon like a sword or rapier or such. If they were gauntlet sized, yes. Any input would be appreciated. __________________ Pad of graph paper: $2.50. Big bag of dice: $8.00. Having the imagination to play roleplaying games? Priceless. For everyone else, there's Call of Duty.

06-01-2009, 07:44 PM	#2
Hannes665 Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Reykjavik, Iceland	Re: Melee combat: Can boxing use brass knuckles to parry edged weapons? Well I think basic Brass knuckles do only provide damage bonus. You dont parry with your fists, you either deflect the blow or attack with your arms or palms and the Brass knuckles only cover the front of the fist. Parrying lets say a sword with barehands require you to parry the attacking hand not the weapon, I recall it being -3 to parry but I could be wrong, dont have Martial Arts nor Basic sets handy. I would rule that Brass knuckles dont assist in swinging parries BUT it is possible at lesser penalties in thrusting attcks by using the fist to block the attacks at -2 instead of -3. But I will bet that most responses here will disagree with that last observation. PS: I am on heavy painkillers after a operation on my left arm so this post may not make as much sense when I read it again in the morning! :P __________________ In the Griffin World I play Agriana Trotter, here is the GURPS crunch. Darth Vader "Luke! I am your fathers second cousins sisters best friends brother!" Luke Skywalker "Nooo... eehh What?!"

06-01-2009, 07:49 PM	#3
Ulzgoroth Join Date: Jul 2008	Re: Melee combat: Can boxing use brass knuckles to parry edged weapons? I can't imagine how you could hope to parry anything with your knuckles, and the notion that your opponent is parrying your knuckles or any part of your hand is far-fetched. Parries against thrusting attacks aren't directed at the tip of the weapon. If you want a protected hand, get a gauntlet. The brass knuckles might keep you from hurting yourself punching armor or a shield, but that's about it.

06-01-2009, 08:20 PM	#4
Kazander Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada	Re: Melee combat: Can boxing use brass knuckles to parry edged weapons? I'd go so far as to give it a 1-2 on a d6 chance of helping while using an aggressive parry, but not a normal one. They might also help protect yourself when punching armor or a shield, as Ulzgoroth suggested. But that's it.

06-01-2009, 08:44 PM	#5
Crakkerjakk "Gimme 18 minutes . . ." Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Albuquerque, NM	Re: Melee combat: Can boxing use brass knuckles to parry edged weapons? Have him wrap a folded sheet of paper around his knuckles and then try to parry you whacking at his torso with a paper towel tube. If he can catch them all on the piece of paper, he's right. If you hit his arms a bunch, you're right. __________________ My bare bones web page Semper Fi

06-01-2009, 09:00 PM	#6
Mr_Sandman Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: L.I., NY	Re: Melee combat: Can boxing use brass knuckles to parry edged weapons? If it was a very cinematic game, I might allow a player to spend points on a "parry with brass knuckles" technique. But that's only because I saw a fight scene on a TV show one where a character used a pair of handcuff gripped like brass knuckles to parry against a knife, then sock the bad guy in the jaw. (Might have been the blonde on "Chuck") I thought it was a cool scene, and would encourage a player in an over the top, cinematic campaign to try something like that. In a realistic campaign, I wouldn't go for it.

06-01-2009, 09:16 PM	#7
Wraithe Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: South Shore-ish, MA	Re: Melee combat: Can boxing use brass knuckles to parry edged weapons? I kinda see where he's coming from, he's talking about counterattacking to parry, striking with his (protected) knuckles to parry. I would allow it only as an All Out Defense. He's using up his attacks to strike the incoming weapon (with the assumption that the BK will hit the weapon. If he parries normally, he takes the damage. So, if he's willing to lose his attacks he can AOD, otherwise he takes his chances(see below). Reason: Boxers don't block with their fists, they move them in the way of an attack. Which is great when you're padded, or taking blows from fists. The other method is hunkering in and "shrugging" off hits. Neither of these is going to fare well against melee weapons. As far as the ignoring damage if someone parries HIS attacks due to brass knuckles? Tell him "nice try" & give him directions to "Honest Akhillus' House Of Cestii". It'd be about the same as someone arguing that because they were using a rock in their fist as a weapon. If he wants to heavily armor his primary striking arm, he's in business, otherwise - No Dice. Last edited by Wraithe; 06-01-2009 at 09:19 PM.

06-01-2009, 09:25 PM	#9
Wraithe Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: South Shore-ish, MA	Re: Melee combat: Can boxing use brass knuckles to parry edged weapons? Ok, I've thought about it for 2 minutes more. I still stick with AOD - if you want to be nice. If you want to "realistic" - I would suggest B400 Attacking Weapons. That's what he wants to do. So in the interests of strict realism, I'd say "no soap" on the first one too, unless you're feeling generous. OTOH, the Attacking Weapons option gives him a decent chance to disarm his foe or cause their weapon to become unready, where he can follow up with a off-hand attack, which seems VERY boxer-style.

06-01-2009, 09:31 PM	#10
Xplo Join Date: Apr 2006	Re: Melee combat: Can boxing use brass knuckles to parry edged weapons? In a cinematic game, I'd let someone parry weapons with brass knuckles. In a realistic game, no. Either way, if someone parried his punch with a weapon, I'd have them take damage to the limb as usual. If someone's punching you, you parry their arm, not their fist...