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Old 07-24-2020, 06:46 AM   #41
Bradix
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Default Re: Supers Char

what book is the godlike extra effort str in? I don't see it on my char assistant... oh and what page number in the book also if you don't mind please lol <3
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Old 07-24-2020, 06:56 AM   #42
zoncxs
 
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Default Re: Supers Char

Powers 4e p.161 at the top.
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Old 07-24-2020, 07:01 AM   #43
naloth
 
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Default Re: Supers Char

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoncxs View Post
Which is why I said "As GM I would rule 0 that out. It makes no sense."
I wasn't quoting or replying to what you said. That was directed towards the "it was probably overlooked" comment by Awesomeness.

Quote:
Hmmm... you kind of have a point. In which case the ability would need a second reduced FP cost to cover "Abilities and Exertion" to zero out those cost. Thats only +20%.
If walking around is 1+1/min, you'd need Reduced Fatigue equal to 1+the number of minutes you intend to carry it around.

Quote:
ST 6 [-40] + Super ST 13/300 = 6+13(300) = 19/306.

I don't know where you got -6 from...
I slightly misunderstood what you were doing, but it's still the same problem. If the +13/300 is "only in Metal Form", he's a ST 6 human.

Quote:
ER ST only is not valid, I don't see where you got that from, but Stunts Only is valid and cost -10%
Only one ability (Using ST) is -50%. Only Stunts would mean you could use it for any ability plus various fatigue for bonus abilities.

Quote:
The skill is way to low, if you are using regular extra effort you want it high enough to actually matter.
16 is hardly low. Besides, I was expressly using the -1 per +100% and 10 ER example in G:Supers just to show what could be done that way instead of using Super-Effort.
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Old 07-24-2020, 10:28 AM   #44
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Default Re: Supers Char

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
I wasn't quoting or replying to what you said. That was directed towards the "it was probably overlooked" comment by Awesomeness.
You were replying to someone who was echoing what I said, which in turn was a reply to what you said.

You = "I say A cause B"
Me = "Huh, didn't know B was there, but I would Rule 0 C"
Them = "Reason for B was probably something. I agree with C"
You = "It has to be B cause its written there"
Me = "Which is why I said Rule 0 C".



Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
If walking around is 1+1/min, you'd need Reduced Fatigue equal to 1+the number of minutes you intend to carry it around.
That is never how I ever read that. If that was true then it would be impossible to ever maintain any Spell. If the spell cost 1 FP and 1 FP per min to maintain:

Skill of 15+ reduces that to 0 FP and 0 FP per min to maintain

NOT

0 FP and STILL 1 FP per min to maintain OR 0 FP and 0FP for first min then 1 FP thereafter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
I slightly misunderstood what you were doing, but it's still the same problem. If the +13/300 is "only in Metal Form", he's a ST 6 human.
You still misunderstood.

ST is bought down to 6, Super ST is bought at +13. The modifier "Only in metal form" is applied to the enhancement "Super Effort" and not to the ST.

ST (A, B) is what you are thinking but:

ST (A(B)) is what i made. You can only use the "Super" part in metal form, otherwise its just ST +13.


Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Only one ability (Using ST) is -50%. Only Stunts would mean you could use it for any ability plus various fatigue for bonus abilities.
Powers p 119:
"One Power: Only available if you have two or more powers of a given source. Your ER works with just one of your powers."

Powers p 7:
"A “power” is an exotic or supernatural gift that you can direct in different ways to produce a number of related effects. A good example is Telepathy (see p. B257):..."

"Each power has a source: the origin of the energy the wielder manipulates to produce its effects. This is normally chosen from the list under Advantage Origins (see p. B33) – for instance, Telepathy is “psionic” – but the GM is free to invent other sources."

So unless the player has multiple powers from different sources, you can't have that. And how many sources and powers are up to the GM.


Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
16 is hardly low. Besides, I was expressly using the -1 per +100% and 10 ER example in G:Supers just to show what could be done that way instead of using Super-Effort.
I had to look that up, I never new you could do that, but again, Statement stands. Lifting skill at att+15 means, with a Will of 10, you can take -5 to -10 on the roll, spend that same 10 ER, and have +500% - +1000% increase, for that same +100% you only need to spend 2 ER at -5, or 1 ER at -10.
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Old 07-24-2020, 12:18 PM   #45
naloth
 
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Default Re: Supers Char

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoncxs View Post
You were replying to someone who was echoing what I said, which in turn was a reply to what you said.

You = "I say A cause B"
Me = "Huh, didn't know B was there, but I would Rule 0 C"
Them = "Reason for B was probably something. I agree with C"
You = "It has to be B cause its written there"
Me = "Which is why I said Rule 0 C".
No, you said "I'd ignore that chunk of the rules." He replied that he thought it was overlooked and the designers might have intended it to work with grappling. I replied that they were very specific to limit it to only a few things, so it's unlikely they meant it to have broader use. You replied to say you would ignore it as a house rule, again. I politely pointed out that I wasn't replying to your house rules, but instead replying to the discussion on which way the designers intended things to work. I didn't comment on your house rules. I certainly don't mind anyone else using house rules. I enjoy house rules, and use many of my own.

Quote:
That is never how I ever read that. If that was true then it would be impossible to ever maintain any Spell. If the spell cost 1 FP and 1 FP per min to maintain:
I checked Basic and it looks like Reduced Fatigue does decrease maintenance costs as well. I'd still wouldn't allow Super Effort to improve Encumbrance as it's not one of the 4 things Super Effort is noted to improve.


Quote:
You still misunderstood.

ST is bought down to 6, Super ST is bought at +13. The modifier "Only in metal form" is applied to the enhancement "Super Effort" and not to the ST.
Using the Limited Enhancement rules to effectively get -30% for each of the -10% limitations seems like a horrible point crock. Limitations shouldn't give you more value by being less limiting. At the very least, I'd apply the same controls that Temporary Disadvantages do and cap it at 80% of the original discount.

Quote:
Powers p 119:
"One Power: Only available if you have two or more powers of a given source. Your ER works with just one of your powers."
I was operating from memory on that and thought it was two or more abilities from a source. Still, you can drop it to ER 20 with a -10% limitation for less points and still be able to do the same stunt (Lifting-4 for x5 ST for 10 ER) twice instead of four times.

Edit: I opened a separate thread on this because it seemed worth delving into deeper. There's not a limitation for "ER only used for one ability". The -10% is for either "Only EE and stunts" or "only basic costs" but either work for any ability in that source.

Quote:
I had to look that up, I never new you could do that, but again, Statement stands. Lifting skill at att+15 means, with a Will of 10, you can take -5 to -10 on the roll, spend that same 10 ER, and have +500% - +1000% increase, for that same +100% you only need to spend 2 ER at -5, or 1 ER at -10.
Sure, there are benefits to having a higher Lifting skill. Each point of Lifting skill also costs more than ER even without modifiers. Depending on how often you need to make super lifts (or for how long) you may be better off with skill or a high ER. I use specifically using the book example of 10 ER for +100% at -1 Lifting because it was an example.

There are also quite a few drawbacks to this type of EE vs using Super-Effort. It's ok to use on a budget if your lifting needs are high for very short time periods.

Last edited by naloth; 07-24-2020 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 07-24-2020, 01:42 PM   #46
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Default Re: Supers Char

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
No, you said "I'd ignore that chunk of the rules." He replied that he thought it was overlooked and the designers might have intended it to work with grappling. I replied that they were very specific to limit it to only a few things, so it's unlikely they meant it to have broader use. You replied to say you would ignore it as a house rule, again. I politely pointed out that I wasn't replying to your house rules, but instead replying to the discussion on which way the designers intended things to work. I didn't comment on your house rules. I certainly don't mind anyone else using house rules. I enjoy house rules, and use many of my own.
I said "As GM I would rule 0 that out. It makes no sense." Going by the book, remember Supers came out after Powers, Supers does not mention that last bit about lifting. After all, Overall ST applies to grapples and chokes, and that is what this is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
I checked Basic and it looks like Reduced Fatigue does decrease maintenance costs as well. I'd still wouldn't allow Super Effort to improve Encumbrance as it's not one of the 4 things Super Effort is noted to improve.
I don't understand how you can make that leap. Super ST (and Super Lifting ST) does improve encumbrance, for as long as you can pay the FP cost. It even says:

Supers p 24
"As described in GURPS Powers, it allows heroes to lift extreme weights."

Powers p 58
"Your Lifting ST works as usual except when you use extra effort."

Basic p 65
"Add your Lifting ST to your ordinary ST when you determine Basic Lift (p. 15) for the purposes of carrying, lifting, pushing, and pulling."

So as long as you can pay the FP cost, your ST changes to the higher value, which increases your encumbrance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Using the Limited Enhancement rules to effectively get -30% for each of the -10% limitations seems like a horrible point crock. Limitations shouldn't give you more value by being less limiting. At the very least, I'd apply the same controls that Temporary Disadvantages do and cap it at 80% of the original discount.
Its the way that optional rule works. You are not adding a temporary disadvantage. You are limiting and enhancement. Just because the enhancement happens to by +300% does not mean it is a point crock.


Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Sure, there are benefits to having a higher Lifting skill. Each point of Lifting skill also costs more than ER even without modifiers. Depending on how often you need to make super lifts (or for how long) you may be better off with skill or a high ER. I use specifically using the book example of 10 ER for +100% at -1 Lifting because it was an example.
No worries, I understood your example, its why I focused on the skill level and not that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
There are also quite a few drawbacks to this type of EE vs using Super-Effort. It's ok to use on a budget if your lifting needs are high for very short time periods.
Quote for truth. Its only after a certain level (and point cost) that Super ST (and Super Lifting ST) become better.


EDIT:: I'll post further if need be on the thread you opened about this.
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Old 07-24-2020, 02:50 PM   #47
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Supers Char

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoncxs View Post
I said "As GM I would rule 0 that out. It makes no sense." Going by the book, remember Supers came out after Powers, Supers does not mention that last bit about lifting. After all, Overall ST applies to grapples and chokes, and that is what this is.
Both are pretty clear and explicit. I'll walk you through it, so you can see the only leap is that you've decided to house rule how it works.

Supers allows 4 different uses for the +300%. The first you've got partial quotes for:

Quote:
Supers p 24
"As described in GURPS Powers, it allows heroes to lift extreme weights."

Powers p 58
"Your Lifting ST works as usual except when you use extra effort."
Right there. Lifting ST works completely normally (no using the range/speed chart) for everything other than extra effort. If and only when you use extra effort, can you use the enhanced value. It further says that you can't combine extra effort and grappling using this enhancement. Supers does nothing to remove any of those restrictions.

Quote:
Basic p 65
"Add your Lifting ST to your ordinary ST when you determine Basic Lift (p. 15) for the purposes of carrying, lifting, pushing, and pulling."
Except that Super Effort only applies when you're using extra effort... Not for any normal carrying, lifting, pushing, and pulling. Powers tells us when you're walking around town normally or wrestling with someone "your Lifting ST works as usual" not it's Super-ST value.

Quote:
Its the way that optional rule works. You are not adding a temporary disadvantage. You are limiting and enhancement. Just because the enhancement happens to by +300% does not mean it is a point crock.
It's not just the cost of the enhancement. It's that this implementation gives you a bigger point break for less of a drawback and there's no compelling reason why it should just apply to the enhancement. Normally you use it to determine the cost of a less powerful version of the original enhancement. For example, "I can only use this enhancement 2/day" is still an improvement to overall ability but the enhancement isn't as valuable as it would otherwise be.

In your example, the enhancement does everything it always did and didn't really suffer from the limitation. The enhancement arguably be used as often since it's restricted to a form, but that has nothing to do with any of the functions of the enhancement. Furthermore, if you are being consistent with that philosophy the other enhancement (Cosmic allows ST to take reduced fatigue) should follow the same optional rule and enhance "Super-ST +300%" by +50% since the Cosmic only applies to the Super-ST limitations rather than inherent limitations on ST. Your net would be Super-ST +390% plus Reduced Fatigue +20% (which can apply to all ST uses) for a net +410%.

In other cases temporary limitation functions much like a temporary disadvantage. It's limited in scope so it may not be as serious as the original value indicates. That's exactly what is happening here where the Power Modifier isn't a modifier on an ability, isn't limiting ability like it normally would, and actually gives you a bigger discount than if it modified the whole ability.
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