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Old 02-26-2022, 09:45 PM   #1
Mettius
 
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Default AADA Arena Setup Rules?

Are rules for how arenas are generally setup for auto dueling published anywhere?

As in starting position for cars, starting speed, etc.
I've been flipping through my various books and supplements, but not seeing anything.
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Old 02-27-2022, 03:28 AM   #2
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Default Re: AADA Arena Setup Rules?

There are no "rules" as such. As in real-life it would be a decision for the arena designer. You could use existing designs as a guide or inspiration or you could just make it up.

If you are concerned with fairness (which is the usual reason for wanting some hard rules) then just allow everyone in your group to contribute. You could come up with a hybrid design or a consensus design or in the worst case several disparate designs that you take turns in using (as a local Autoduel circuit).

My arenas are thematic and geared for my group size. As we are a small group (2-5 cars per event) I generally have 6 gates (there will usually be several unused gates in an event). This allows a simple d6 allocation of gate number and so we don't have to be as concerned whether any particular gate offers an advantage (though symmetry will help).

Starting speed is usually a player option. As I like gritty realism in the preparation stage (where we basically have as much time as we need) I prefer to limit start up speeds to what could be achieved from a standing start. Small arenas tend to have smaller run-ups.

Some of my dirt-poor arenas are drawn on a single sheet of A4 paper (8 squares by 10 or 40 x 50 yards). The run up for these is 25 yards (5" at 1" scale). Clearly a car with ACC 5 could be at 20 when it hits the gate and a car with ACC 10 could be at 30 when it hits the gate etc. With an arena this small hitting the gate at 30 means you are going to need to turn 90 degrees over the next two seconds and so this mechanism helps prevent people from over committing and crashing out through control loss before the combat has even really started.

This may seem very small (and it is) but for AM nights when gunnery skill is poor and you are likely to have no computers it reduced the time to get into range. A full combat might last 10 seconds in total. This is short, but I have seen arenas 8 times the size only take 20-30 seconds. This means a sponsor could put on 8 small bouts simultaneously and end up with 8 x 10 seconds of combat footage to sell to the networks rather than 1 x 30 seconds (and 8 smaller crowds who are close to the action).

Generally it is good practice to place a blocking obstacle between gates on opposite sides of an arena to stop cars shot-up before they even get fully out of the gate (sufficiently large distance if effectively an obstacle).

When stipulating designs you will quickly get a feel for which ones overly benefit from an arenas quirks. There are 3 options.
1) Fix the arena - in reality this would be expensive (and the larger the arena the more expensive it will be) so it probably isn't realistic. If you don't care about realism (or can think of a cheap workaround) then this won't be an issue
2) Set a limit on the cars - this is cheaper and as long as everyone knows in advance that "Dropped Weapons are banned" then it's probably the best solution.
3) Ignore the issue and let players exploit the quirk, this will probably end up with very specialised cars and may make the game a bit "samey". If this arena is part of a circuit then players will have a choice about building a vehicle optimised for this area with it probably suffering in others (and this could indirectly impose a budget constraint on them as running multiple vehicles might increase their running costs. This could also affect skill choice (if you know DWs are king then why spend points in gunner). I'd avoid it though if you have only a single arena.

Other than that a common practice seems to be to choose some local facility (Mall, Carpark or sport arena etc.) and just base your design on that including all the issues that such a design would impose as features.

You can have lots of fun on a simple 8 x 11 area. With 6 gates (one centred on each of the short sides and two equally spaced on each long side. Put a 1" square indestructible bunker on the long centre line between each pair of side gates.

In my games these serve as pedestrian refuges, camera platforms and also have an arena controlled enforcement weapon. These are so high that they are always above the 45 degree arc of non-universal vehicle weapons but are themselves universal and can therefore generally target top armour.

In some events (most Am Nights) these are just used to punish rules infractions and are controlled by a Gunner-2 with HR computer. They mount triple weapons (VSGs for AM night) and depending on the infraction they will fire one or more linked weapons. The number of guns that wil be fired is specified in the rules and it is a legitimate tactic to add top armour to buy protection against specific infractions. The budget of AM nights means that this will need to be balanced with other threats.

On special events these guns can instead be placed under computer control with the target vehicle determined by crowd vote. Usually these are judicial events in rough towns where death-row criminals are forced to duel for the crowds entertainment. The voting system varies but it needs to be fair (so no on the spot decisions) and should be set out as a set of conditions (we usually base it on the contestant with the lowest current prestige after 3 turns being the target - with ties being determined randomly). Prestige is recalculated dynamically so if everyone starts with zero prestige failing to get a kill quickly will put you at risk (which handily prevents players from lurking). Of course a popular criminal (as a former duellist maybe or just a survivor from previous bouts) stands a better chance of having the crowd do his work for him. After enough bouts he may earn his freedom (or at least have his sentence commuted).

No hard and fast rules, just plenty of options.

Oh and a lesson hard learned. Don't fall too much in love with a complicated design that you invested too much time in. You may only ever get to play it once and in my case we never even got to finish a circuit before most of the cars were destroyed and we ran out of time. Some of the events that occurred in that one event however were EPIC and still some of my fondest CW memories, I just wished I'd spent less time designing and drawing it out as half the arena went largely unexplored.

Last edited by swordtart; 02-27-2022 at 03:32 AM.
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Old 02-27-2022, 10:10 AM   #3
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Default Re: AADA Arena Setup Rules?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swordtart View Post
This may seem very small (and it is) but for AM nights when gunnery skill is poor and you are likely to have no computers it reduced the time to get into range.
Wow, thanks very thoughtful and detailed response. :)

Question: By default, I think CWC2.5 gives duelists 30 character points. Which for a single crew driver, would mean a Zero and a One stat for each of Driver and Gunner.

Are you still giving drivers for Amateur night events the full 30 SP? Or is that the definition of amateur.

(Our first few recent games we had zero skill levels for everything, and it was a bit painful with all the constant missing). Then I saw the SP spending section (which I'd forgotten about).
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Old 02-27-2022, 02:17 PM   #4
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Default Re: AADA Arena Setup Rules?

Skill 0 is competent enough for non-stressful activity (e.g. driving to the shops without any risk of crashing into a lamppost on the way). I class Skill 1 as apprentice and skill 2 as professional. But a professional Gunner-2 is not necessarily a professional auto-duellist. Being mono-skilled is fine for the gunner on a rig where there are other people to support you, but most Am nights are single crewman affairs and you would be at a significant disadvantage taking the penalty for being an unskilled Driver.

On that basis I'd say 30 points was the definition of Amateur.

Actually Driver 0, Gunner 0 and some other skill 0 (often hand gunner) is pretty common. It avoids the major penalties in all the key areas and +0 in all areas is less bad than +2 in one and -3 in two (+2-3-3 = -4 over the three skills overall). We often have NPCs in Am Night and I randomly assign skills on a d6 roll (1-3 no skill, 4-5 skill 0, 6 skill 1). If someone has none of the combat skills then I'll start rolling for less obvious skills that still might have some use to make up their 30 points. You opponent may be a desperate ex-motorcycle ganger trying to get enough to buy a bike and have Cyclist-1, Handgunner-0 for example, not great, but possibly better than that ex-con who has Streetwise-2 and nothing else.

In rough areas (i.e. the kind of places that recruits for AM Nights) Handgun skill is a basic survival skill (with low-tech dreg gangs it might even be Melee instead). Having access to vehicular weaponry and thence Gunner is harder to justify (but you could be ex-militia or army). Consider the relative costs of a heavy pistol or rifle vs. the cost of a tripod weapon vs. the cost of even the cheapest car. Also consider the relative costs of ammunition. You can practice for longer with a pistol than with an MG for the same money.

Actually having a car would be unusual so Driver skill could easily be 0 or less. You might reasonably be able to get some shared time on a driving simulator or even borrow a friends car to get you some familiarity, but if you were any good you would probably get a job as a courier or a convoy escort driver and be able to rely on some friends or a car with some performance than to risk your life on a lifestyle that will kill 50% of your contemporaries before they earn enough to break out of the Am Circuit.

Remember you may need to survive more than one AM night to make enough money to break out (usually it needs a win to get a good enough car to compete in division 5). According to the background fluff many arenas have a three strikes and you are out rule, meaning you can only enter Am Night three times. Of course you can always sign on at other arenas under a false name and some of the less scrupulous arenas may not bother checking anyway, but if you have failed to win after three events, maybe you should consider another career :)
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Old 02-27-2022, 03:44 PM   #5
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Default Re: AADA Arena Setup Rules?

With respect to Skill 0 vs Skill 1.

That +1 seems like a big deal initially but it can be compensated easily by choosing your ground better. I would rate an good player with skill 0 characters over an average player with skill 1 characters any day. Compensating for a -3 due to not having the skill at all is a different ball game entirely, it is a lot of ground to make up.

You can compensate for barely adequate weapon skill by getting closer, choosing to attack at the correct vector, sustained fire etc. You can compensate for barely adequate Driver skill by optimising manoeuvres and avoiding control rolls where possible. For example you can make a single D1 bend and move for a several phases before straightening out. Many new players will instead execute multiple D1 drifts to achieve the same effect. New players often drive too fast and end up having to brake suddenly and spending all their velocity whereas more experienced players will accelerate less in the first place.

Most crashes are due to poor judgement of the player rather than poor performance of the vehicle or character.
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Old 02-28-2022, 01:54 PM   #6
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Default Re: AADA Arena Setup Rules?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swordtart View Post
Remember you may need to survive more than one AM night to make enough money to break out (usually it needs a win to get a good enough car to compete in division 5). According to the background fluff many arenas have a three strikes and you are out rule, meaning you can only enter Am Night three times. Of course you can always sign on at other arenas under a false name and some of the less scrupulous arenas may not bother checking anyway, but if you have failed to win after three events, maybe you should consider another career :)
The video game _AutoDuel_ had an exemption to this: If your character was sufficiently without-money, one could enter an Amateur Night event; the NPC running the arena would say something like: "You're no amateur. But you seem to be down on your luck, so I'll give you a chance."
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Old 02-28-2022, 03:20 PM   #7
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Default Re: AADA Arena Setup Rules?

AN is for starting characters. Outside of AN I'd always give duelists more than 30 skill points. A driver +1 gunner 0 in Division 20 is a joke - how did that person even survive?

I revised the whole skill advancement anyway - the current system is too harsh on starting characters, and too easy for continuing characters. If you don't believe me - then you haven't had a player harvesting cycle kills...

Last edited by juris; 03-01-2022 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 03-01-2022, 02:13 AM   #8
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Default Re: AADA Arena Setup Rules?

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AM is for starting characters. Outside of AN I'd always give duellists more than 30 skill points. A driver +1 gunner 0 in Division 20 is a joke - how did that person even survive?

I revised the whole skill advancement anyway - the current system is too harsh on starting characters, and too easy for continuing characters. If you don't believe me - then you haven't had a player harvesting cycle kills...
True. I am now inclined to the Cepheus/Classic Traveller (CT) model - the skills you have are the ones it has taken years to acquire. You shouldn't be able to massively increase your skills in a week, no matter how busy you were in that week (and lets face it in CW if you are in an armed single seater you get a Skill Point each in Gunner and Driver for just turning up).

To compensate (like CT or Cepheus) you would get a raft of skills at 0 for free at start-up. Most of these would be non-combat skills (and otherwise we rarely see anyone take Lawyer-0 as a random example). Skill 0 is sufficient to hold down a job using that skill (Lawyer 0 would likely be a legal clerk rather than Harvey Dent but you could still scrape a living). Skill 1 would be an associate and level 2 would be a full partner. Depending on your career and background you would also acquire a few skills at 1 or higher.

Cepheus has a skill advancement scheme (unlike CT) but it requires study (or I allow on the job training - see next para) but it takes weeks (basically add up the skill numbers you have (not levels) so Gunner 1, Driver 2 would be a total of 3. Training takes a number of weeks equal to that total plus the skill number you are trying to achieve (so Gunner 2 would take 5 weeks, Driver 3 would take 6 weeks).

These are weeks of study (with some practical exercises allowed) not elapsed weeks. If you are spending 8 hours a day driving a rig up and down the country for a week that would count as of a week of Trucker training. If the Truck Driver fired 20 shots in that whole week, it wouldn't count as a week of Gunner training for him. On the other hand a Gunner on that same rig could count the week as a week of training even if he expended 10 rounds in anger as we can assume that while he is not actually shooting at opponents he is running simulators, covering the angles, reading "Combat Gunner" magazine, sharing was stories with the other gunners and the like to keep his skills sharp. Basically you can count your primary role on the vehicle as training, but not things you exercise just when necessary.

AMs could legitimately spend their time between Saturday Night Events practicing either on simulators or actually out on the track using paintball ammo. They would choose either Driver or Gunner as their focus for the week.

There is no mechanism to acquire NEW skills in Cepheus (but many scenarios gift players without appropriate skills for the specific job as pre-mission training).

If you use Zozer's Zaibatsu you can use the character generation rules pretty much unamended and transplant them directly into CW. This is particularly suitable for CW as it assumes that the characters are young rather than 40 year old veterans like tends to be the case with CT and it is a Cyberpunk rather than Science Fiction setting which seems a better fit than CW. It also gives you a raft of handy extras (like statistics)* which can greatly enhance a campaign in CW as otherwise everyone is the same 150lb 3DP component. If you are prepared to do a little cross-mapping of skills then you can still make a fairly good fist of it using the basic Cepheus rules (and they are free).

*To be fair, there were some CW articles that allowed you to make characters a little more varied, but to be honest they didn't really work for me as the underlying CW mechanic was too lumpy to be able to fine tune.
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Old 03-01-2022, 01:28 PM   #9
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Default Re: AADA Arena Setup Rules?

Yes. This exactly.

My system - all skills start at 0 as 'untrained', but even 1 skill point removes the penalty.

Logarithmic advancement

10 skill points +1
20 (more) skill points +2 (total 30 skill points)
30 (more) skill points +3 (total 60 skill points)
etc

That's basically it. A starting character can have three +1's, or two plus 1's and be a jack of all trades.

As you said a '+3' is very impressive and basically makes you a 'professional' in that skill.

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T
To compensate (like CT or Cepheus) you would get a raft of skills at 0 for free at start-up. .
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Old 03-01-2022, 01:58 PM   #10
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Default Re: AADA Arena Setup Rules?

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That's basically it. A starting character can have three +1's, or two plus 1's and be a jack of all trades.
I used a variant of this back-when.

A starting character had three "combat skill" levels, and six "non-combat skill" levels -- a "combat skill" defined as "any skill which would be used in an arena fight" (the various driving skills; Gunner; Handgunner; etc.). So a beginning duellist might look like this:

-- Driver +0; Gunner +0; Handgunner +0
-- Mechanic +0; Area Knowledge +0; Navigation +1; Politics +0; Fast-Talk +0

He has the basics of combat down; he knows enough to be able to basic upkeep on his vehicles; he won't get lost on his way to and from the arena; and he has the "gift of gab" to deal with sponsors, TV crews, and such-like.

Skill advancement:

-- General skill points convert to specific skill points at 10:1.
-- Skills upgrade at the following rate: 0: 10 pts.; +1: 10 pts.; +2: 14 pts.; +3: 17 pts.; +4: 20 pts.; etc. (In short: Take the square root of the level, calculated to 1 decimal place; then multiply by 10.)
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