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Old 09-21-2015, 12:05 AM   #1
evileeyore
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Default DF 1 & 8 - Magic Item Cost Disparity?

So the rules in DF 1 say this:

Quote:
Note to those with GURPS Magic: Costs assume that enchanted items up to 100 energy points are Quick and Dirty ($1/point), that more powerful artifacts are second-hand Slow and Sure items ($20/point), and that alchemical amulets are rare ($66/day, plus ingredients).
It then lists these Enchantments:
Spell - Cost
Deflect - $2,000
Lighten - $100

Both are 100 energy to enchant.

Further in DF 8 Treasure Tables these are listed:
Accuracy +2 (Projectile) - $100
Blur 1 - $2,000
Foul Water - $2,000
Ignite Fire - $2,000
Noise - $2,000
Pollen Cloud - $2,000
Puissance +2 (Projectile) - $100
Quick-Aim (2 turns) - $100
Repel Animal - $2,000
Repel Spirits - $2,000
Shade - $2,000
Umbrella $2,000
Vital Seeker +1 - $100

Note, all of these require 100 energy to Enchant (with maybe the exception of Vital Seeker, being there are no rules for Enchanting outside of DF 8 Treasure Tables), so why are some listed at $100 with others at $2000?

Okay, I can see just saying "Everything 100 energy or more, except for Ammunition Enchantments and Lighten, cost $20 per point". I mean Blur and Deflect are very sweet and would be on everything if they were only $100. But why are some of those weak utility enchatments up there as well?

Or more to the point, what makes Ignite Fire more valuable than Lighten, or as valuable as Pollen Cloud?
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Old 09-21-2015, 12:43 AM   #2
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Default Re: DF 1 & 8 - Magic Item Cost Disparity?

My group has noticed this quite awhile ago and generally figured out that it basically follows this.

If the enchantment only passively affects the item/PC, then it goes with the Q&D method of $1/point. This makes the list as: Lighten, Accuracy, Quick-Aim, Puissance, and Vital-Seeker. While potentially powerful in the right situation, these will still only passively affect the PC and no one else.

If you're seeking to actively affect the world or an NPC of some sort, that's when it goes to S&S since it would obviously cost more if you're not going with a passive route.

This is the only discernible pattern that we have found from them.

The obvious exceptions are Blur and Deflect, but those seems somewhat justified based on their effects. Both make you harder to hit, the former by giving others -1 to hit you, the latter by giving you +1 to all defense rolls to keep from being hit. To balance it, it probably seemed appropriate to take the higher cost of the two methods.

Here's a link that may help explain the disparity between Lighten and Deflect: http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...20&postcount=9
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Last edited by Ternas; 09-21-2015 at 12:52 AM. Reason: Found Forum link.
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Old 09-21-2015, 07:53 AM   #3
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Default Re: DF 1 & 8 - Magic Item Cost Disparity?

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Originally Posted by Ternas View Post
My group has noticed this quite awhile ago and generally figured out that it basically follows this.

If the enchantment only passively affects the item/PC, then it goes with the Q&D method of $1/point. This makes the list as: Lighten, Accuracy, Quick-Aim, Puissance, and Vital-Seeker. While potentially powerful in the right situation, these will still only passively affect the PC and no one else.

If you're seeking to actively affect the world or an NPC of some sort, that's when it goes to S&S since it would obviously cost more if you're not going with a passive route.
That makes some sense.

I was wondering as I just made a DF character for the first time (first 4e character actually) and making a character is a different mindset than DMing, you notice things differently... Anyway, I made a list of every spell in Magic that could be enchanted at $100 or less, and then noticed Deflect in DF1 (and then checked prices in DF 8 to confirm).

Doing it this way creates an odd situation where Stench ($60) and Smoke ($50), both highly effective combat spells, are cheaper to get in a wand than say, Ignite Fire, which is of extremely limited use and very dubious at $2K.

For the campaign I plan to run I think I'll make a mid point at the 90-100ish mark and charge $10/point for non-Combat spells. This will bring the utility spells back down into 'reasonable' range, but keep Nauseate, Retch, Slow Healing, etc, up there in the "First Upgrade" range.


For the game I'm in I'll just have to negotiate for anything not written up. Luckily the GM so far is okay with my Staff having Light on it for $100...
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Old 09-21-2015, 08:50 AM   #4
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Default Re: DF 1 & 8 - Magic Item Cost Disparity?

For my game I just totally tossed out Q&D prices. This does mean PCs don't start with magic other than alchemy, generally. I'm not stingy with handing it out after creation, but it just solves a lot of annoying.

I also made Deflect a lot more expensive, and the blocking/parrying only enchantments cheaper. I might need to look at Blur.
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Old 09-21-2015, 12:16 PM   #5
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Default Re: DF 1 & 8 - Magic Item Cost Disparity?

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
For my game I just totally tossed out Q&D prices. This does mean PCs don't start with magic other than alchemy, generally. I'm not stingy with handing it out after creation, but it just solves a lot of annoying.
That would make pricing simpler. And it's not like $1k (Forify +1) is out of reach for a starting PC's Sig Gear (I just dropped 5Cp on starting gear, on a 125CP character).

Quote:
I also made Deflect a lot more expensive, and the blocking/parrying only enchantments cheaper. I might need to look at Blur.
How much did you increase it by and did you also adjust Puissance and Accuracy as well?
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Old 09-21-2015, 01:21 PM   #6
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Default Re: DF 1 & 8 - Magic Item Cost Disparity?

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
That would make pricing simpler. And it's not like $1k (Forify +1) is out of reach for a starting PC's Sig Gear (I just dropped 5Cp on starting gear, on a 125CP character).
It's definitely doable. It makes weird little convenience enchantments expensive, but many of those are inconsistently priced per energy anyways so I don't sweat it. If it bothers me I'll arbitrarily change their costs too - but they're definitely the minority.

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
How much did you increase it by and did you also adjust Puissance and Accuracy as well?
Deflect got increased to 500/2500/8000/15000/25000 energy; Defending Shield/whatever reduced to Energy Cost is reduced to 100/500/2000 energy. My full rules are up here.

I didn't change the costs of Puissance and Accuracy, they didn't make things wonky in-play the same way (rule zero with house-rules: does this issue come up in-play?). Also it was weird as heck that a general bonus to all defenses cost so much less than a bonus to blocks only. Just, WTF? I don't even. So, it is now fixed.

I did add an enchantment to counter Penetrating Weapon - my players like armor piercing arrows, and sort of gravitated towards Penetrating Weapon when they saw it. Since I don't have PC enchanters I didn't bother with prerequisites, but I defined two levels, hardened vs AD 2 for $1000 (50 energy) and hardened vs AD 3 (150 energy).
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Old 09-21-2015, 01:48 PM   #7
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Default Re: DF 1 & 8 - Magic Item Cost Disparity?

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
Deflect got increased to 500/2500/8000/15000/25000 energy; Defending Shield/whatever reduced to Energy Cost is reduced to 100/500/2000 energy. My full rules are up here.
Oh, I like. Consider it stolen.

Quote:
I didn't change the costs of Puissance and Accuracy, they didn't make things wonky in-play the same way (rule zero with house-rules: does this issue come up in-play?). Also it was weird as heck that a general bonus to all defenses cost so much less than a bonus to blocks only. Just, WTF? I don't even. So, it is now fixed.
Cool. I was just wondering as I haven't run an 'over-the-top' Dungeon-style fantasy game since 3e, and have managed to avoid needing the Magic book up till now...

Quote:
I did add an enchantment to counter Penetrating Weapon - my players like armor piercing arrows, and sort of gravitated towards Penetrating Weapon when they saw it. Since I don't have PC enchanters I didn't bother with prerequisites, but I defined two levels, hardened vs AD 2 for $1000 (50 energy) and hardened vs AD 3 (150 energy).
Sounds good. I'll consider it as well.
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