High TL Advantage?

[Anthony]

In response to 'burning the xp' -- the cost of high TL is not large, and it can give pretty major advantages if not watched carefully.

The major issue in terms of economies of scale is that raw materials of the proper quality won't be as easy to get as they would be in a proper TL 4 society, and producing them for yourself is a bunch of work, though unlike higher TLs, it's within the capabilities of a TL 4 alchemist to build everything he needs in his own lab.

Building TL 4 guns with TL 3 materials would probably reduce the Malf by a point or two.

[Phil Masters]

Originally Posted by Anthony

In response to 'burning the xp' -- the cost of high TL is not large, and it can give pretty major advantages if not watched carefully.

Not really. A lot of the time, good TL3 bows and crossbows are pretty much as good as TL4 firearms, especially for tough adventurer types (it's the slightly sickly peasant militia who get a killer advantage from weapons that don't require much physical strength or skill to be deadly). Actually, TL4 armour might be what's really nice to have - but that's heavy and infernally expensive even before that higher TL doubling. And TL4 pocket watches are a bit of a joke, though one could have a half-decent clock in one's house. TL4 maritime technology is markedly niftier, I guess...

But I'm with the "if you don't like it, just be honest and ban it" school of thought. Plenty of people in TL(X) societies have no way whatsoever to learn TL(X+1) skills or acquire TL(X+1) equipment - somebody living in America in 1964 would have no way to acquire a personal computer or a GPS system, and somebody living in Europe in 1200 wouldn't be able to find a handgun or even a functional cannon. If you let him spend those points, you're admitting that the society has contact with proper TL4 developments, and you should bloody well play fair by that admission.

(And no, you're not even required to let someone buy a handgonne in a TL3 game, whatever the weapon table says. Plenty of societies don't have everything that can be attached to their TL, and gunpowder weapons are particularly quirky and bleeding-edge.)

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

But I'm with the "if you don't like it, just be honest and ban it" school of thought.

Same here. If you let him have the advantage, don't gut it. The controls seem pretty tough anyway - he's in a TL3 society and he has access to a limited pool of experimental TL4. Essentially, the bleeding edge. Even if you give him real TL4 guns (and not a TL3 Handgonne with the worst Malf possible) and he can make ammunition (really easy if he takes the skills), he's not going to be a dominant figure. Without Gadgeteer and appropriate skills he's not going to be making custom firearms and clockpunk mecha, he's just going to have some nifty high-tech stuff that will give him an edge.

Or should I say, he'll have to the chance to get it...the cost of TL4 stuff with only TL3 money means he'll probably not have an infinite supply of guns if one breaks.

Me, I'd ban it entirely or let it worth with minimal (but realistic) limitations. Making sure he's got a crappy TL3 gun and can't get or make ammo for it isn't much of a +1 TL advantage.

[Kromm]

Having run a campaign where a PC had a gun from an advanced TL, I can say that it isn't the overwhelming advantage that some seem to believe it is. The TL4 vs. TL3 case is particularly marginal . . . at either TL, a gun is a one-shot advantage in a small-unit (PC party-sized) fight, and the shooter can still miss by dint of a bad attack roll or a good defense roll. In most cases, the net effect is to allow a bonus to Intimidation. A lone TL4 marksman simply cannot dominate TL3 foes. You need a several ranks of well-drilled TL4 musketmen before you start to see a tactical advantage from TL4 firearms.

In GURPS terms, you're better off with a late-TL2 crossbow in a small-unit engagement: four-second reloads, Acc 4, 1/2D 200 for the average man, and 6 lbs. vs. 15-second reloads, Acc 2, 1/2D 100, and 13 lbs. for the gun. The crossbow is quieter and doesn't generate a massive smoke cloud, making it significantly more effective for sniping and assassination, too. And it's everyday, not a screaming announcement: "I AM A HIGH-TECH GADGETEER! HERE'S MY EMINENTLY RECOGNIZABLE TRADEMARK!" That gives the crossbow a "social" edge as well. The sole advantage of a TL4 gun is its armor-piercing ability (which, in real life, is what wiped knights off the battlefield).

[damedley]

Thank you all for the helpful advice. Here's how I'm going to play it, at least at first:

I'm going to make the gross assumption that experimental TL4 items of all kinds can be found, but are expensive, require re-training of those who would use them (increasing the effective expense), and extensive training of those who would make them. For all these reasons they are very rare.

A character may be a "technophile" by increasing his personal TL to 4. Because he is interested in new technologies he seeks them out and is not phazed by the additional cost in time and money. In order to have a reliable source for TL4 equipment he must have one or more Contacts who specialize in inventing and tinkering with a particular branch of technology. Characters with a lower TL can use DX-based equipment as per the rules, but do not have the interest or understanding to seek out and find useful advanced technologies.

In the particular case of TL4 firearms, the malfunction number will be normal for TL4.

A quick response: I don't dislike my player having advanced weapons, I just want there to be a reason why everyone using gunpowder weapons doesn't have them! Double damage and max range along with +2 to accuracy and malf seems like a pretty good deal for an extra hundred bucks. If such weapons are available, why would anyone use the $300 handgonne instead? That's the question. Comparisions to crossbows and such are pretty irrelevant.

Anyway, does that sound like a more fair/balanced/semi-realistic (or at least consistent) approach?

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by damedley

If such weapons are available, why would anyone use the $300 handgonne instead? That's the question.

Cost and availability - if the TL4 weapons are relatively rare, expensive, and require more training to use and maintain, using a TL3 gun makes sense. People with less money or less access to a ready source will use them. Rich folks and technophiles will use them, sure but cost is a real concern.

Originally Posted by damedley

Anyway, does that sound like a more fair/balanced/semi-realistic (or at least consistent) approach?

I think so. He's getting what he paid for, and you're getting a reasonable set of controls on potential abuse. The description fits the circumstances - if he spends 5 xp and a bunch of money, he gets a better gun than other people. If he uses it as a club and it breaks, he's out a lot of money and he's not always going to be able to swing by the local Bloodbath & Beyond to pick up a new one, because they aren't terribly common.

As a player, I can see equally good reasons for going this route and reasons for saying "screw it, I'm taking a crossbow!" Sounds fairly balanced to me!

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by damedley

I don't dislike my player having advanced weapons, I just want there to be a reason why everyone using gunpowder weapons doesn't have them! Double damage and max range along with +2 to accuracy and malf seems like a pretty good deal for an extra hundred bucks. If such weapons are available, why would anyone use the $300 handgonne instead? That's the question.

The thing is, it isn't an "extra hundred bucks." Muskets are only really effective vs. faster-firing bows and charging knights when massed; ergo, you need to equip a unit. That's an extra $100 times the number of men in a rank times the number of ranks in the line. That's, um, a big chunk of change. And of course the "double cost per TL" scheme isn't an economically accurate model for mass purchases -- it's a dramatic model for fun-to-play PCs. As Anthony pointed out, a factor of 10 is more realistic if you just want to play economics. So it's $400 vs. $300 for PCs in the sorts of semi-cinematic games where "Being from a higher tech level" is a character niche like "Being a wizard" or "Being a bard," but it's more like $2,000 vs. $300 for the king equipping his army . . . which is an even bigger chunk of change.

It's vitally important to keep in mind that lots of equipment-related traits in GURPS -- Gadgeteer, Gizmos, High TL, Signature Gear, Weapon Bond, Weapon Master, etc. -- are slanted toward generating dramatic archetypes and not toward realistic economics or combat performance. In a high-realism game, you should simply forbid characters with High TL save in "fish out of water" games where the high-TL explorer is stranded or whatever.