Wolves and wrestling

[Dutch_Wolf]

As desrcibed in my previous topic Need help in preparing campaign I was preparing a game where the players are playing wolves. I am currently playing that game and in a recent session a player wanted to grapple, and the question came up why the skill list I use doens't include wrestling.

Doing some research I find in the basic set (p.B370) that grappling can be done with just a roll against DX, and according to martial arts (p.MA115 under the box teeth) grappling with teeth can be done with brawling (also it includes the feature 'Born biter' and I am not sure if wolves should have the +1 or +2 version). Some further research (looking at youtube videos and reading wikipedia mostly) I can see some moves (especially in shows of dominance and 'play' fights) that can be considered more wrestling like then brawling like. Examples include: 'pinning' another wolf, hanging onto the neck of a prey (trying to use weight to destabilize (can be interpreted as an attempt to throw)), trying to push another wolf of when lying on back (with front legs), etc. (Some what I mean can be seen here)

My question know is should wolves (if they are player characters) have access to wrestling or not? (and should I use born biter +1 or +2)

[whswhs]

If you look at the inventory of moves under Sumo Wrestling, it's actually a fairly close match to some aspects of canine combat. It may be a better fit than standard Wrestling.

I'd say it's really more sensible, though, to say that a wild animal has straight DX, or at most Brawling. It isn't as if they would make a systematic study of the effectiveness of different moves.

Bill Stoddard

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Dutch_Wolf

My question know is should wolves (if they are player characters) have access to wrestling or not? (and should I use born biter +1 or +2)

Wolves that are player characters probably should have access to Wrestling, Sumo Wrestling, Karate, etc. Maybe not if you're attempting something with a Watership Down-like effort to match your PC wolves to real wolves, and real wolves have no concept of Judo (hypothetically). But a sapient wolf can make use of any unarmed skill, to some degree.

[SuedodeuS]

I'd allow Wrestling, even for non-sapient animals - after all, they are likely learning something from all that play-fighting. I think a good deal of the combat from things like challenges is grappling, and if wolves couldn't learn Wrestling the older wolf would almost invariably lose to an inexperienced younger wolf (as the younger wolf would have higher DX and thus higher effective skill if it can't be learned).

As for Born Biter, DF lizardmen have Born Biter 3, so I'd expect wolves to have similar.

[Dutch_Wolf]

Originally Posted by whswhs

If you look at the inventory of moves under Sumo Wrestling, it's actually a fairly close match to some aspects of canine combat. It may be a better fit than standard Wrestling.

Interesting hadn't thought about that, will look into it.

I'd say it's really more sensible, though, to say that a wild animal has straight DX, or at most Brawling. It isn't as if they would make a systematic study of the effectiveness of different moves.

Bill Stoddard

I agree for wild natural unintelligent animals, but I am going for a more waterhipdown/fantasy feel here so the wolves are intelligent (and player characters I might add) so I think I will allow some more.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Wolves that are player characters probably should have access to Wrestling, Sumo Wrestling, Karate, etc. Maybe not if you're attempting something with a Watership Down-like effort to match your PC wolves to real wolves, and real wolves have no concept of Judo (hypothetically). But a sapient wolf can make use of any unarmed skill, to some degree.

Although I am going for a Watershipdown like feel I do think that for predator species combat is more important so some extra combat skills might be appropriate (also note that Bunnies and Burrows does include a martial art and is inspired by Watershipdown).

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

I'd allow Wrestling, even for non-sapient animals - after all, they are likely learning something from all that play-fighting. I think a good deal of the combat from things like challenges is grappling, and if wolves couldn't learn Wrestling the older wolf would almost invariably lose to an inexperienced younger wolf (as the younger wolf would have higher DX and thus higher effective skill if it can't be learned).

Hadn't thought about it that way, but it is indeed another reason to allow (sumo?) wrestling.

As for Born Biter, DF lizardmen have Born Biter 3, so I'd expect wolves to have similar.

Well currently I have settled for Born Biter 2 at first I thought it might be 1 but that felt wrong. But if you think it might be 3 then that could also be an option have to hear some more opinions about this.

Anyway thanks for the replies.

[Barghaest]

Originally Posted by Dutch_Wolf

My question know is should wolves (if they are player characters) have access to wrestling or not? (and should I use born biter +1 or +2)

Using the rules for Teeth (MA115) by default every canine needs about +2 born biter feature. Most canines are SM -1 (or 0 for those over 3 feet long, in Tactical Combat they'd take up two hexes even though they don't completely fill both hexes - brings me to a tangent about SM since I feel it should be based more on torso size because the human torso is a -0 Hit Location modifier and it's under 3 feet in length so a Horizontal being with the same torso size as a human should technically be SM 0 and not take up 2 hexes, but I digress) so in order to do what canines CAN do to a normal human, they'd have to be effectively SM 1 (otherwise they couldn't cripple a person's arm and a medium-large dog like a Rottweiler can snap bones (especially the radius and/or ulna) and are still technically SM -1).

As for learning wrestling, I could see a wolf learning it, but don't consider it necessary for the way they operate. They tend to use straight DX or possibly get a perk or two to default a few wrestling techniques off brawling instead (although this is unnecessary for a grappling bite as it would use Brawling since that includes most uses of natural attacks). I did do a minor tweak to the Teeth rules - in the section for exceeding SM by 1-2, it only considered biting grapples to be two-handed for a limited selection of maneuvers... I added Takedown to that list, since that's a common technique for canines - wolves latch onto to the throat of their prey and drag them down while dogs tend to bite a person's arm and try to pull them off balance - and I don't see them having half effective ST for that purpose.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Dutch_Wolf

Hadn't thought about it that way, but it is indeed another reason to allow (sumo?) wrestling

I love Sumo and try to use it for perhaps a bit more than I should, but you should note that it doesn't assist a Pin if you want to heavily feature that move in their combat style.

Originally Posted by Dutch_Wolf

Well currently I have settled for Born Biter 2 at first I thought it might be 1 but that felt wrong. But if you think it might be 3 then that could also be an option have to hear some more opinions about this.

I personally give them Born Biter x1, but I could see arguments for x2. x3 would allow an SM 0 wolf to engulf a human's entire head or torso according to MA p115, which seems a little out of line with real wolf mouths to me.

[aesir23]

I would suggest allowing Sumo Wrestling or Wrestling and the Perk: Skill Adaptation (Bite with Wrestling) instead of Brawling. Wolves don't really "strike", almost all of their fighting and hunting involves grappling with their teeth.

Big cats and Bears would, of course have Brawling or Karate as well as Wrestling.

[Dutch_Wolf]

Originally Posted by Barghaest

Using the rules for Teeth (MA115) by default every canine needs about +2 born biter feature. Most canines are SM -1 (or 0 for those over 3 feet long, in Tactical Combat they'd take up two hexes even though they don't completely fill both hexes - brings me to a tangent about SM since I feel it should be based more on torso size because the human torso is a -0 Hit Location modifier and it's under 3 feet in length so a Horizontal being with the same torso size as a human should technically be SM 0 and not take up 2 hexes, but I digress) so in order to do what canines CAN do to a normal human, they'd have to be effectively SM 1 (otherwise they couldn't cripple a person's arm and a medium-large dog like a Rottweiler can snap bones (especially the radius and/or ulna) and are still technically SM -1).
[...]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

[...]
I personally give them Born Biter x1, but I could see arguments for x2. x3 would allow an SM 0 wolf to engulf a human's entire head or torso according to MA p115, which seems a little out of line with real wolf mouths to me.

Seeing this I think I was right to give them Born Biter +2
Thanks

Originally Posted by Barghaest

[...]
As for learning wrestling, I could see a wolf learning it, but don't consider it necessary for the way they operate. They tend to use straight DX or possibly get a perk or two to default a few wrestling techniques off brawling instead (although this is unnecessary for a grappling bite as it would use Brawling since that includes most uses of natural attacks). I did do a minor tweak to the Teeth rules - in the section for exceeding SM by 1-2, it only considered biting grapples to be two-handed for a limited selection of maneuvers... I added Takedown to that list, since that's a common technique for canines - wolves latch onto to the throat of their prey and drag them down while dogs tend to bite a person's arm and try to pull them off balance - and I don't see them having half effective ST for that purpose.

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

I love Sumo and try to use it for perhaps a bit more than I should, but you should note that it doesn't assist a Pin if you want to heavily feature that move in their combat style.
[...]

Originally Posted by aesir23

I would suggest allowing Sumo Wrestling or Wrestling and the Perk: Skill Adaptation (Bite with Wrestling) instead of Brawling. Wolves don't really "strike", almost all of their fighting and hunting involves grappling with their teeth.

Big cats and Bears would, of course have Brawling or Karate as well as Wrestling.

Lots of options, I like that, I am not sure what I will do exactly (yet) but it seems I will allow the 'wolves' to at least buy (sumo) wrestling and/or allow some perks to adapt some wrestling techniques to brawl (or the other way around if I use the suggestion of aesir23)

Thanks again.